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Death in Freeport 3.5 Re-Recruiting (Closed)

Yes, I saw that people generaly consider the class underpowered, with faulty mechanics, but I find it interesting enough to try...

There are several "fixes" I'll give you the links so you can read if anything strikes you playtest worthy...

What level do I start at? Starting wealth, attributes etc...I assume I use the rules from the start of this thread?

Short history overview: Logan is innkeeper's third son with no inheritance rights so he apprenticed himself to local library as scribe. All was well, he was tested for magical aptitude by local priest of Deneir and local mage (names in full version) and showed no magical ability. He was, however, devotedly religous taking teachings of Deneir. He read practically whole library, until one day grey cloaked figure exited from one archway Logan considered ornamental. This was his introduction to Deneir scribes, he was taken to see Portal of Written Word and initiated into search for Metatext learning first sylables of True Language...

May I send questions and character by e-mail? I tend to write in severeal burst over the course of day because I'm at work so longer texts are not realy practical.

Oh, and thank you :) I can post essentialy every day except weekends. Also, I'm at GMT +1 so I'm posting with half a day advance :)

The background is a good start and is easy to connect into the Athenaeum as it is a lore repository.

1st level, 100 gold, character creation guidelines on the front page.

We'll plan on going by the book for the class to start (I remember the mechanic formulas not getting iffy until high levels where the doubling in the formula meant your skill roll fell behind level appropriate targets) but I am interested in seeing alt mechanics, we'll adjust if something seems really neat and mutually agreeable.

I prefer questions and such here so there is an easy to refer to place to look up the answers later. If you want private questions feel free to sblock and we'll go on the honor code. :)
 

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Logan

OK, simple enough.

With rule changes of base classes that you put in house rules section, do I get to increase HitDie from d6 to d8...and are there any other relevant changes to the class?


Here are few questions:
I have whole complete series, but only smatterings of other books (Sword and Fist, Races of Stone and few others)

I had in mind using feat from complete champion (it is devotion feat for religious non-clerical folks) Knowledge Devotion, also I had mind to try Complete Scoundrel Luck feats, but that is later in game...

May I use Netbook of Feats as alternate source? I have Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, Spell and Magic item compendium...and unearthed arcana from which sibbeccai come...I can use those, right?

Also, what would be masterwork tool for truenamer? Mnemonic sheet to help memory? Tube for the ear to increase perceptivity of subtle shifts in sound? Something else? Or is it impossible to use 'tools' for something as speech (as there are no 'tools' for lets say diplomacy and gather info)

I may have other, but I need to review feats from your sources (those that I have). Until such time, consider Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) and Lucky Start (Complete Scoundrel) and let me know if I may keep them...

May I be member of Paragnostic Assembly? They are seekers of knowledge with ties to Deneir and Logan would be unaffiliated with Athenaeum...I just need to see in which book are they described (ToM?)

I'll post finished character later today or tomorrow morning at the latest so you can start considering how to introduce me :)
 
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OK, simple enough.

With rule changes of base classes that you put in house rules section, do I get to increase HitDie from d6 to d8...and are there any other relevant changes to the class?

I originally thought of them as full casters so I would stick with d6s, but their mechanics are much more like bards and they are not considered a strong class so I'm fine going with d8s. I'll look it over a little more closely later but for now let's go with the base class by the book as a starting point for the rest.


Here are few questions:
I have whole complete series, but only smatterings of other books (Sword and Fist, Races of Stone and few others)

I had in mind using feat from complete champion (it is devotion feat for religious non-clerical folks) Knowledge Devotion, also I had mind to try Complete Scoundrel Luck feats, but that is later in game...

May I use Netbook of Feats as alternate source? I have Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, Spell and Magic item compendium...and unearthed arcana from which sibbeccai come...I can use those, right?

I have a version of Netbook of feats so I will consider feats from in there if there is one you are interested in.

I do not have Tome of Battle or Magic Item Compendium so I'm not using stuff from there.

I have Arcana Unearthed (the monte cook book with sibeccai) and will consider stuff from in there, and we even have a sibbecai in the party. I also have the WotC Unearthed Arcana with the D&D alternate rules and classes, many of which are incorporated into the house rules. I will consider stuff from both.

There is also a website http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml I use with details of lots of WotC feats and searchable by book, though it does not cover Tome of Battle or Magic Item Compendium. I will consider feats from the site as they are written there.

Also, what would be masterwork tool for truenamer? Mnemonic sheet to help memory? Tube for the ear to increase perceptivity of subtle shifts in sound? Something else? Or is it impossible to use 'tools' for something as speech (as there are no 'tools' for lets say diplomacy and gather info)

I'd consider a book on TrueNames or TrueSpeach as suitable for masterwork, but probably only useable with a lot of research preparation so not really in combat on the fly as a free action.

I may have other, but I need to review feats from your sources (those that I have). Until such time, consider Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) and Lucky Start (Complete Scoundrel) and let me know if I may keep them...
Lucky start is no problem.

The knowledge one has prereqs of 5 skill ranks in a knowledge and 1st level PCs only have 4 max per skill. It is also very strong combat bonuses particularly compared with weapon focus and weapon specialization IMO, but it fits well with the secrets of the Assembly. I may allow it as an option later.

May I be member of Paragnostic Assembly? They are seekers of knowledge with ties to Deneir and Logan would be unaffiliated with Athenaeum...I just need to see in which book are they described (ToM?)
I remember liking the Truenamer groups, but this one did not ring a bell. I googled it and found it is from Complete Champion. I got enough information off the web to be comfortable with them.

They have a lot of overlap with the Athenaeum, but I'm fine with having two knowledge group societies. The Athenaeum is dedicated to preserving knowledge while the Assembly reveres knowledge and sees it as the path to enlightenment. Both have library repositories.

The Assembly disapproves of secret knowledge and in ancient times they suffered losses to followers of the Old God Vecna lord of secrets who looted Assembly repositories, slew many loremasters, and destroyed many Assembly records including the records of their early history. When the old gods left in the first War of Powers the Assembly continued, its followers developing into a full path for spiritual fulfillment through seeking out knowledge.

Deneir is part of the pantheon of new gods on the continent, his followers became involved with the Assembly finding its ancient goals and worship of knowledge compatible with their holy missions. In recent years with the return of the old gods followers of Boccob and Wee Jas have rejoined the Assembly as well. In current days relations between the Assembly and the Athenaeum are collegial but the Athenaeum is rumored to hold secret lore the Assembly desires.

I'll post finished character later today or tomorrow morning at the latest so you can start considering how to introduce me :)

Let's work on what exactly your relationship is to get you involved in tracking down Lucius for Brother Egil of the Athenaeum.
 

Connection to brother Egil

I have to paths in mind depending on what did you do with Lucius while he was away:

1st includes Lucius: Lucius came to Assembly while he was still semi-normal looking for same knowledge he did in Athenaeum. His search area brought him in contact with young history student that served there and they became, if not friends, then good collegues. They discussed things and at times when Lucius obsession relaxed a little he even talked about brother Egil and his job at the library.

He left and Logan continued his search...now, Logan either found out some detail(s) that thinks might interest Lucius or even bring him in danger and as he always wanted to visit Athenaeum he uses it to come to visit and finds out that Lucius is missing.

2nd is more direct: he came to Athenaeum to study (and procure some secret info if possible) and ended up working for brother Egil. They became friends as Logan was always kind of outcast as he was from competing academy and not all scholars like having him around. Add to this his constant glaring at people and he is prime candidate for brother Egil to befriend :)
 

The knowledge one has prereqs of 5 skill ranks in a knowledge and 1st level PCs only have 4 max per skill. It is also very strong combat bonuses particularly compared with weapon focus and weapon specialization IMO, but it fits well with the secrets of the Assembly. I may allow it as an option later.
IT is powerful, but requires skills and skill rolls. With int 16 Logan should be able to qualify with as little to reach skill 5


I remember liking the Truenamer groups, but this one did not ring a bell. I googled it and found it is from Complete Champion. I got enough information off the web to be comfortable with them.
Very well, Logan is member


Several other things:
1st
I'd ask that once utterance is complete it cannot be dispeled. As truenamer cannot dismiss it as spell and it's the universe changing speech, once magical energy of the speech is spent (utterance completed) there is no more magic to dispel, universe is at it's 'normal' at that point in time. It can be counterspoken at any time of course or dispeled before it is completed while magical energy is still building.

2nd
Consider the rule in which knowing personal truename of someone removes any and all resistances that creature might posses as truename bares his soul. There is always saving throw to resist the effect (if applicable)

3rd
You may have noticed I am not native english speaker. If you see any glaring errors in my typing or use of words please point it out, I'm still learning. Also, as a consequnce, there might be occasions I misunderstand or cause misunderstanding because of subtle differences in meaning of some words or simply out of cultural differences. Please, point out such errors, but don't get angry, it is not intentional.

4th: Here are links on truenamer I mentioned earlier
Wizards
Paizo boards

and finally, do I send you finished character via email, post him here or in RG?
 

Logan - not finished, but ready for review

Code:
Name:       Logan Artimus of Seven Towers (born in Dyvers)
Race:       Human
Player:     Neurotic
Classes:    Trunamer 1
Hit Points: 10 (8+CON)
Experience: 0 / 1000
Alignment:  (would be) Lawful Good
Vision:     
Speed:      Walk 30 ft.
Languages:  Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven plus Ancient and Orcish
 
Stat    Score   Mod	Pts
STR      10      (+0)	 2
DEX      12      (+1)	 4
CON      14      (+2)	 6
INT      16      (+3)	10 
WIS      12      (+1)	 4
CHA      14      (+2)	 6
--------------------------
			32

Current Truespeak DC = 11 (10 + CR)
Current Level Check = 1d20 +1 (level) +3 (INT) (+1 1/day (Godtouched)) = 1d20+4 (5)

 
-------------------------- Skills ----------------------------------
Skill				     Total     Rnk	Stat	Msc
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Concentration (CON)			4	2	2	
Craft (Alchemy)	(INT)			5	1	3	1 (from Specialized)
Perform (Oratory) (CHA)			3	1	2
Gather Information (CHA)		3	2	2
Heal (WIS)				3	2	1
Knowledge(Arcana) (INT)			6	2	3	1 (from Absent minded)
Knowledge(Religion) (INT)		7	3	3	1 (from Absent minded)
Knowledge(Nature) (INT)			5	1	3	1 (from Absent minded)
Knowledge(Local) (INT)			6	2	3	1 (from Absent minded)
Knowledge(Ancient History) (INT)	7	3	3	1 (from Absent minded)
Knowledge(Planes) (INT)			5	1	3	1 (from Absent minded)
Knowledge(Exotic Materials) (INT)	4	1	3	1 (from Absent minded)
Sense Motive (WIS)			4	3	1
Use Magic Device (CHA)			6	4	2	+2 (for scrolls)
Skill trick (Collector of stories)		2
Language (Ancient/Celestial)			1
Language (Orcish)				1

--------------------------------------------------------------
						32
Total skills (4+1+3) x4 = 32

Utterances:
1st LEM : Word of Nurturing OR Inertia surge

 
-------------------------- Feats ---------------------------
1. T1: Godtouched
2. Human: Luck of Heroes
3. 


God Touched (Deneir) Benefit: Once per day, while performing an act related to one of your deity's portfolios, you can call 	

	upon your deity as a free action and gain a +1 luck bonus on any one die roll.


-------------------------- Traits ----------------
Absent minded +1 Knowledge -1 Spot/Listen
Specialized (alchemy) +1; -2 to all other craft checks






-------------------------- Combat --------------------------
 
    Total / Touch / Flat Footed
AC: 15    / 12    / 14
 
Initiative:   +1
BAB:          +0
Melee to hit:  +0
Ranged to hit: +1
 
Fortitude:    +0 +2(CON) +1 (feat) = +3
Reflex:       +0 +1(DEX) +1 (feat) = +2
Will:         +2 +1(WIS) +1 (feat) = +4
 
Unarmed attack:
to hit:       +0
damage:       1d3
critical:     20/x2

Dagger:
to hit:       +0
damage:       1d4
critical:     19-20/x2
range:	      +1; 10'; P/S

Light Crossbow:
to hit:       +1
damage:       1d6
critical:     19-20/x2
range:	      80'

Longspear (reach 10'):
to hit:       +0
damage:       1d8
critical:     20/x3

 
------------------------- Equipment ------------------------
Name                                            QTY	LBS	gp
Outfit (Scholars)                               1	 6	 5
Studded leather 				1	20	25
Backpack					1	 2	 2
Book of names (spellbook)			1	 3	15
Writing utensils (inkpen + ink)			1	 -	 8.1

Light x-bow					1	 4	35
bolts (20)					2	 1	10
Dagger						1	 1	 2
Longspear					1	 9	 5
------------------------------------------------------------------
							28     67.1
Total weight caried: 28
Current load:        Light
 
Encumbrance
Light:  33
Medium: 66   
Heavy:  100
 
 
 
------------------------ Description -----------------------
Height: 5' 6"            Weight: 146 lbs.                Gender: Male	
Eyes: Bright green       Hair: Black, sideburns          Skin: pale
Dominant Hand: Right     Quirks:  	
Speech style: enunciates very clearly, speaks studiously
Quotable: 
 
DESCRIPTION
This wiry bookish man stares intently into you and just as you become unconfortable under scrutiny he lowers his gaze and 

smiles amiably. His square set hair and sideburns reaching down under the ears and hooked narrow nose give his visage sharp 

look that softens considerably as he smiles. His eyes sparkle with unsatiable curiosity about the world around him, wide 

forehead hinting at inteligence.

He wears tan-white tunics and medium length cloaks of bright crimson. He has (holy) writing kit, a triangular leather belt 

pouch filled with parchment, ink, and quills.

 
Background
Logan is innkeeper's third son with no inheritance rights (father Valas Barrow, Inn Grounded Anchor in Dyvers) so he 

apprenticed himself to local library as scribe. All was well, he was tested for magical aptitude by local priest of Deneir, 

brother Garrou, and local mage Estephan Caullas, and showed no magical ability. He was, however, devotedly religous taking 

teachings of Deneir to heart. He read practically whole library, until one day grey cloaked figure exited from one archway 

Logan until that moment considered only ornamental. This was his introduction to Deneir scribes, he was taken to see Portal 

of Written Word at Seven Towers and initiated into search for Metatext learning first sylables of True Language.

The man that emerged was and elf, Avaldunir of the Purple Eye, Namer of Oghma, well known in towns and villages south of 

Dyvers and he just started for the Capital and is passing by. So Logna went with old elf, first to the Capital and then back 

toward mountains. Up they went into the hidden valley. There they spent Logan’s first year as student of Oghma. Late in the 

summer they went back to see his parents. When he and Avaldunir returned they went even further into the mountains, all the 

way to Iron Dragon Temple, hidden stronghold of Deneir. Front was of course Oghma’s temple for those seeking enlightenment 

in solitude.

Inside, Logan's curiosity bloomed. At first he was fazed with inventions of Gond, but soon came to understand that true 

knowledge was information. Also, ability to communicate with many different people in their native languages was important 

as people tend to share more when speaking with someone in their language.

Thus, Logan learned old languages from the library and from older monks and dwarven from dwarven guards and merchants 

frequenting the old monastery. He never forgot elven from his first teacher.

Several years into his training he was initiated as Glyphscribe. Now, he is Glyphscribe well versed in the ways of Oghma as 

is needed in the Empire, but yearning for information as Deneir's student.

[sblock=Deneir]
Deneir is the scribe of Oghma and thus his right hand. In many works of art he is depicted as an old wise man with long 

white beard. He is the keeper of all knowledge. It is also said that he knows everything ever written and all secrets are 

open to him. He favors riddles as excercise for the mind, but dislikes obscuring knowledge. He recognizes that some 

knowledge shouldn't be public, but destroying it is out of question.

Priests of Deneir wear tan-white tunics and golden circlets bearing Deneir's symbol on their brow, and medium length cloaks 

of bright crimson. Deneir's priests also wear a holy writing kit, a triangular leather belt pouch filled with parchment, 

ink, and quills.
[/sblock]


1st includes Lucius: Lucius came to Assembly while he was still semi-normal looking for same knowledge he did in Athenaeum. 

His search area brought him in contact with young history student that served there and they became, if not friends, then 

good collegues. They discussed things and at times when Lucius obsession relaxed a little he even talked about brother Egil 

and his job at the library.
He left and Logan continued his search...now, Logan either found out some detail(s) that thinks might interest Lucius or 

even bring him in danger and as he always wanted to visit Athenaeum he uses it to come to visit and finds out that Lucius is 

missing.

2nd is more direct: he came to Athenaeum to study (and procure some secret info if possible) and ended up working for 

brother Egil. They became friends as Logan was always kind of outcast as he was from competing academy and not all scholars 

like having him around. Add to this his constant glaring at people and he is prime candidate for brother Egil to befriend
 
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IT is powerful, but requires skills and skill rolls. With int 16 Logan should be able to qualify with as little to reach skill 5

Skill Summary, ranks versus modifier

knowledge devotion feat

The prerequisite is 5 skill ranks in a single knowledge skill. Not a skill check modifier of +5. You can easily get a skill check modifier (ranks + ability modifier + miscellaneous bonus) of +5 at first level but you can only have 4 ranks in a skill at 1st level. You cannot have 5 ranks in a skill until 2nd level.

This feat cannot be taken until 2nd level. In addition because it is so strong I will either tone it down or make it only available as a higher secret of the Assembly.

In any case consider which different feat you want to take at 1st.



Very well, Logan is member


Several other things:
1st
I'd ask that once utterance is complete it cannot be dispeled. As truenamer cannot dismiss it as spell and it's the universe changing speech, once magical energy of the speech is spent (utterance completed) there is no more magic to dispel, universe is at it's 'normal' at that point in time. It can be counterspoken at any time of course or dispeled before it is completed while magical energy is still building.

2nd
Consider the rule in which knowing personal truename of someone removes any and all resistances that creature might posses as truename bares his soul. There is always saving throw to resist the effect (if applicable)

3rd
You may have noticed I am not native english speaker. If you see any glaring errors in my typing or use of words please point it out, I'm still learning. Also, as a consequnce, there might be occasions I misunderstand or cause misunderstanding because of subtle differences in meaning of some words or simply out of cultural differences. Please, point out such errors, but don't get angry, it is not intentional.

4th: Here are links on truenamer I mentioned earlier
Wizards
Paizo boards

and finally, do I send you finished character via email, post him here or in RG?

1 Interesting thematically, but I'll have to look over specific powers before making a ruling. I might go with Truespeach utterances actively enforcing the change in reality by creating ongoing truespeach runes which are there in the fabric of reality so that dispelling is not a flavor contradiction.

2 No, though I might make feats later to go with the theme of manipulating those whose truenames you master. I'm going to look over Arcana Unearthed/Evolved for inspiration as I remember they have some neat d20 truename mechanics.

3 Not a problem. American English is my native language

4 Heh, I found that optimization thread when googling the paragnostics which led me to viewing the class and the suggested builds as more bardlike than wizardlike mechanically despite the flavor.

I like the paizo suggestion of turning it into a straight level check with the DC becoming a non doubling CR target. I'm considering that variant as a much more straightforward mechanic.

5 post the character sheet here.
 

More questions

OK, I edited Logan in post above, added full skills, weapons etc...basic equipment...you say if I missed something or there is something you require all chars to start with...I changed History to Ancient History and would like to speak at least one Ancint Language...as I have foreknowledge that we need some Uraqi knowledge you may consider making Logan knowing the other one...

For Knowledge devotion: increase everythin by one category so that to gain +1 one needs to make DC 15 check. For further weakening make it DC +5 (i.e. start at 20)

Alternate feat is (of course) Truespeak focus giving LOgan skill 10 which will have to change again if yo udecide to make it level check.

I have list of around 10 feats that improve Logans speaking, number of languages known etc. and luck feats (when you absolutely have to Peace Ward that pit fiend :)) so, no problem...Logan can read essentialy anything, but is not good with people, even though he is likeable when people get to know him (he is reclusive, but has high CHA)



Could Logan start with dagger (Deneir's favored weapon) soulblade (soulblade is in attachment)...
I dislike D&D logic of changing items as soon as new magic becomes available, I'd rather stick with one item I WANT to upgrade because it has some personal meaning...
 

Attachments


Could Logan start with dagger (Deneir's favored weapon) soulblade (soulblade is in attachment)...
I dislike D&D logic of changing items as soon as new magic becomes available, I'd rather stick with one item I WANT to upgrade because it has some personal meaning...

No, but I'm a big fan of upgrading existing stuff as the game goes on. Enchanter spellcasters are available in the city to empower existing weapons and I have a few other mechanics along similar lines though most are for higher level PCs.
 

Another version of soulblade

Item Familiar from UA?

Ancestral relic or some such (this I didn't have time to look up). Item familiar is available as a feat from 3rd level on...

When do I start?

Also, I'd like to point out that soulblade has it's own level progression and receives half my XP, those are not character levels of wielder but soulblade levels which are generaly very low (it's 2nd comes only after character goes over to thrird) and you can slow it down even more by limiting the amount of XP it gains.

This is misunderstanding I encountered before so I just wanted to clarify (I have one (dead) char with soulblade).


Regardless of you allowing soulblade, I'd like to start with such low quality looking dagger...but with normal stats
 
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