Death Saving Throws (& Flanking while prone also...)

[Greyscott]

I had this issue show up in last night's game, and was curious to how others might rule this...

Balasar the fighter is unconscious, and desperately making his "death saving throw" each round, when Paelias the wizard finally uses his Heal skill to stabilize him (although Balasar remains at negative hitpoints). With no other external healing available, Balasar is unconscious, but no longer in danger of dying...however, Balasar requests that he continue making death saves each round, trying to get a 20 or higher on his roll, so he can spend one of the healing surges he still has remaining (to get conscious and back in the fight), as per page 295 of the PHB.

Stabilization under the Heal skill seems to imply that you stop making the death save, but doesn't explicitly prohibit you from doing so. I could see nothing wrong with it on the face of it, and agreed with "Balasar" and "Paelias" that stabilization via the heal skill should stop the adverse consequences of a failed death save, but shouldn't foreclose the possibility of "surging" themselves back into the fray with a successful (i.e, 20 or higher) save...

And one other issue, is there any reason that a prone character cannot "flank" for purposes of combat advantage? All flanking requires is that you can attack, and you can attack from a prone position (albeit at -2 penalty). So although it is somewhat counter-intuitive, I assume I should rule that a prone character can flank...

Happy adventuring -

 

[Branduil]

Sure a prone character can flank.

 

[Dalzig]

By RAW, once you stabilize, you stop rolling. This stops any possibility of getting back up on your own. I agree with this, as it's a kind of gambling. In Vegas, you can't sit at a poker table without any chips and expect to make money if you play enough times.

The only real problem comes when the group has no healing (for whatever reason). But really, if the group doesn't have decent healing capabilities, they should be stocking up on potions to get people back into the fight.

 

[jdpacheco]

I had this issue show up in last night's game, and was curious to how others might rule this...

Balasar the fighter is unconscious, and desperately making his "death saving throw" each round, when Paelias the wizard finally uses his Heal skill to stabilize him (although Balasar remains at negative hitpoints). With no other external healing available, Balasar is unconscious, but no longer in danger of dying...however, Balasar requests that he continue making death saves each round, trying to get a 20 or higher on his roll, so he can spend one of the healing surges he still has remaining (to get conscious and back in the fight), as per page 295 of the PHB.

Stabilization under the Heal skill seems to imply that you stop making the death save, but doesn't explicitly prohibit you from doing so. I could see nothing wrong with it on the face of it, and agreed with "Balasar" and "Paelias" that stabilization via the heal skill should stop the adverse consequences of a failed death save, but shouldn't foreclose the possibility of "surging" themselves back into the fray with a successful (i.e, 20 or higher) save...

And one other issue, is there any reason that a prone character cannot "flank" for purposes of combat advantage? All flanking requires is that you can attack, and you can attack from a prone position (albeit at -2 penalty). So although it is somewhat counter-intuitive, I assume I should rule that a prone character can flank...

Happy adventuring -

Prone creatures can flank, or otherwise gain combat advantage over opponents.

As for the death saving throw... I'd say that technically it doesn't work that way. The only time a Death Saving Throw is available to a character is when they're dying. There's no other place that makes any mention of them...

Of course, as you say, there's nothing to prevent them, either. With that in mind, I would keep the usual restrictions in place. If the player really wants try for the 5% chance (10% if human with the correct feats) at the risk of the 45% chance each round of rolling below 10... Keep in mind that it's 3 "failures" before a rest (I'm assuming short, it's unspecified in the relevant text) will kill the character dead. Even figuring that they need three, there's still a better chance of death than Healing...

Again, I would say that technically it's not allowed. If you do want to allow, keep the restrictions in place. Also, it's going to piss off the other characters who spend their action stabilizing this guy who seems intent on dying anyway.

(quick math shows about even odds of death vs healing for a human with the +1 to saves feat)

 

[fba827]

I disagree with the ruling for the continued saving throw after stabilization. You're supposed to be making a saving throw to avoid death, you're not making a check to auto-heal.

The death saves are due to your non-stable condition. Since you're stable (from the Heal check) you shouldn't be making death saves.

But I understand it was a quick-at-the-table decision...so you had to make a choice quickly with what you saw.

But as for granting flank while prone, as Branduil said, yes, you can grant flank while prone.

Edit: Ninjad-ed! Curse you all!

 

[Stalker0]

By the book, once you stabalize you stop rolling. But I think these would be excellent houserules:

1) Let the player gamble. If he wants to continue to roll death saving throws, he can choose not to stabalize.

2) If a player is stabalized, he surges on a roll of 19-20. These gives parties mroe incentive to use the heal skill.

 

[LyonHearted]

Consider Second Wind?

I was looking at the Heal skill. Could Paelias have used the First Aid option of "Use Second Wind" on Balasar? It's a lower DC than "Stabilize the Dying". It would allow Balasar to use his/her 2nd wind without taking an action to do so (if it wasn't already used).

 

[Caliber]

I was looking at the Heal skill. Could Paelias have used the First Aid option of "Use Second Wind" on Balasar? It's a lower DC than "Stabilize the Dying". It would allow Balasar to use his/her 2nd wind without taking an action to do so (if it wasn't already used).

Yes, if a downed character hasn't used their Second Wind yet, it is best to have someone use Heal to trigger it if no other healing is available.

 

[Greyscott]

Just to add, Balasar had already used his second wind that encounter, but I'm assuming you can't "actively" use it if you are down and unconscious (which he was); although, it is at least implied from the text (and the OP above) that someone using Heal can trigger your second wind even if you're down...?

Happy adventuring -

 

[jdpacheco]

Just to add, Balasar had already used his second wind that encounter, but I'm assuming you can't "actively" use it if you are down and unconscious (which he was); although, it is at least implied from the text (and the OP above) that someone using Heal can trigger your second wind even if you're down...?

Happy adventuring -

Yes. The point of that use of Heal is to trigger Second Wind for a down character. Normally, if you're unconscious you can't activate it because it's a standard action, and you can't take standard actions at that point. However, someone using the heal skill triggers it in a way that doesn't use an action for the down character.