Defeated by puzzle - campaign over: Here is the offending puzzle!

[nerfherder]

Reminds me of people who say "I don't have any reason why the guy would help us, but have a diplomacy of +21 so I'm going to roll."

So you always give a reason why your Fighter with a really high attack roll managed to hit the creature with the really high AC, or why your monk managed to jump across a huge chasm? Or do you just roll the dice, add the bonuses and see if you beat the DC/AC?

Cheers,
Liam

 

[Len]

You'd perfer having a campaign hinge on a single roll of the die?

I don't know what game you're talking about, Crothian, but a D&D campaign often does hinge on a single roll of the die.

It's easy to make up a puzzle that no-one can solve. Requiring the players to solve such a puzzle in order to continue the campaign is not fair. That's not what D&D is about, and it suggests that the DM either hates the players or hates the campaign.

It would be different if there was another way to get past the puzzle. Whether it's an Int check, or a side quest to track down the key to the puzzle, or another way in that's guarded by monsters. Something other than "read my mind or the game is over".

 

[Crothian]

I don't know what game you're talking about, Crothian, but a D&D campaign often does hinge on a single roll of the die.

Not with compitent people running and playing the game.

 

[Crothian]

If you want players to solve puzzles, use puzzles for the players, not the characters.

The puzzle in this thread is for the players, if it was for the characters it would take a die roll. Since it has to be solved by the players that is who it is for.

 

[Ryltar]

As a DM, if I'd thought it absolutely necessary to have the campaign revolve entirely around this one riddle, I'd have posed it to the players, and then offered clues ranging from "almost the solution" to "basic hint", based on the character's INT checks. Thus, the players feel they're actually doing something, as opposed to "just rolling vs a set DC", but it still doesn't degenerate into a puzzle-fest.

YMMV, of course .

 

[Greylock]

Hmmm, four votes so far for "Easy". All right you wise guys, tell us how you solved it. I'm curious whether the DM actually shared the solution with the players after they tossed in the towel.

As for the debate, I think INT checks get you clues but not a free pass. Unless the puzzle is crippling the game.

If I remember correctly from the original thread, this campaign was almost over. Leaving the pc's and players hanging like that after who know's how long is flat out mean.

 

[Gorrstagg]

I have an absolute aversion to DM's who don't allow alternatives to solving the puzzles.. they every now and then think are necessary for their campaign.

They aren't fun.. heck even the puzzle gandalf had to solve the simple riddle of saying friend in elvish left everyone sitting outside moria bored.

If that wasn't clue enough to not do it in a campaign.. I don't know what was.

If I as a DM put this up.. I would let the players spend some time on it, but after a while of no answers.. I would let them make Intelligence tests. Until one of them got it.

And moved on.. vowing not to do that again..

Argh! Puzzles and riddles I think are the bane of good roleplaying.. and they are a personal pet peeve of mine. Because I've played with a few DM's briefly who tried to pull this type of crap. And pointed out to them.. to get back to the game and having fun.. not twisting our minds on something that they the DM thought was clever.

Grr!!!

 

[jeffh]

Puzzles are not for characters they are for players.

Then you have to ask what the hell it's doing there in the first place. From an in-character perspective, why does it even exist?

If it's based on a pattern or something I'm convinced the GM left too many (or the wrong) entries blank for it to be solvable, unless there was some sort of additional clue that hasn't been mentioned so far.

 

[Crothian]

Then you have to ask what the hell it's doing there in the first place. From an in-character perspective, why does it even exist?

I'm not running the game why are you asking me? I can tell you why and how puzzles exist in my game. I have a puzzle for the players at the same point there is one for the characters. Instead of having the characters roll dice to solve theirs though, the players need to solve theirs. It is a represnetation of a puzzle and not always the same the characters would be faced with. I also don't have the success and failutre of a campaign hinge on a single puzzle. Plus, before I use puzzles in a campaign I talk to the players ahead of time how I plan yo use them and make sure they are okay with it. Puzzles can be a great part of the game when used right, when used wrong they are not that great just like anything that is used wrong.

 

[Roman]

Alright some answers to the questions presented:

1) We did try using squares and other symbols (cubes and hypercubes - we tried to see whether it has something to do with dimensions) but that did not work.
2) We did not try making it correspond to a map, so that is certainly a new suggestion. However, now that it has been suggested I can confirm that it does not correspond to any map we have.
3) The triangles all point downwards.
4) Circles are crossed. Imagine a circle like this "O" but with an "x" in the center.
5) The puzzle is a 15x15 grid, but the cells are about twice as wide as they are high. I suspect this does not have any significance other than the fact that the puzzle was printed from Excel where cells are wider than they are high.
6) The number 15 or 225 does not have any in campaign or meta-campaign significance as far as we know.
7) There were neither any instructions on the puzzle nor any clues we can relate to it apart from the (exact quote): "Fill in the proper symbols into the blanks"
8) As I have explained in the previous thread, it is simply not possible to go somewhere else or do something else or get some help.
9) Algolei, the symbols you highlighted are correct - they should indeed be there.


As a note, I want to point out that our DM ran an enjoyable campaing, so remarks that he is an idiot and so on are certainly not justified - we played in the campaign for exactly a year now and there were a number of puzzles but there was always the possibility for us to go somewhere else or do something else except this time. Yes, it does suck that the campaign ended because we could not solve the puzzle (and we expressed our pity to the DM), but we moved on to a new one - no hard feelings.