Defeated by puzzle - campaign over: Here is the offending puzzle!

[Ds Da Man]

All right, I have to respond to this.

If I was the dm, and the puzzle was out there in my campaign world, and the pcs failed to solve it- I would not give them the answer. They might go back to that same puzzle some day.

It's like telling the players about the secret door they missed in the last dungeon only to have their characters return to search it out! I've learned my lesson about that kind of thing, that's for sure. No matter whether the pcs encounter the mystery or not, it remains mystery until unraveled in my campaign. There are lots of 'big secrets' that the pcs have never even touched on imc, or ones they've barely brushed against. I don't show my cards until the characters get to see them; there are no player previews.

Frankly, I'm a little disappointed at the level of vitriol being hurled at Roman's dm. He has told us in a couple of different posts that the guy is basically a good, fun dm; I don't think it's fair to judge him on a single puzzle taken, frankly, far out of context by everyone. I think this puzzle is definitely a valid challenge; the thing that makes it ruinous is the pcs' inability to retreat and try other things while they chew it over.

Anyhow, I'd like to echo Roman's request that everyone take it a lil easier on his dm.

(Edit: On the other hand, I'd like to know what happened to the pcs- did they starve? Was there a slow death trap that killed them after a few hours? Could they just keep trying different combos til they got it?)

What are you talking about man? He's going to let the entire campaign die because of this stupid so-called puzzle! Were it my friend DMing, and he did this crap (which this puzzle has nothing to do with the PCs, only the players) to the party, I would offer to DM, and continue on with the same characters. No roll for a chance to figure it out, and the campaign is over. BAD DM

 

[TheAuldGrump]

All right, I have to respond to this.

If I was the dm, and the puzzle was out there in my campaign world, and the pcs failed to solve it- I would not give them the answer. They might go back to that same puzzle some day.

Maybe if you were DM you would try to use it again. But at this point I think that you would then be left wondering 'where did my players go?'

The puzzle:
A) Serves no good purpose in the game.
B)Wasted a full game and then some of the player's time.

The players were more willing to have the campaign end than deal with the puzzle. Are you sure that you would still try to run it again?

The Auld Grump

 

[the Jester]

Maybe if you were DM you would try to use it again. But at this point I think that you would then be left wondering 'where did my players go?'

Two points:

1. What's to prevent the players from trying again once they know the answer?

2. Who's to say that a different group of players, possibly including some of the same ones, won't encounter it some day?

I'm not necessarily talking about 'trying to use it again', I'm talking about pcs trying to solve it again.

Again, I'll reiterate: the mistake the dm made was making this impossible to retreat from. There's nothing wrong with doing other things while you work at a puzzle or riddle.

 

[darkelfo]

If I was the dm, and the puzzle was out there in my campaign world, and the pcs failed to solve it- I would not give them the answer. They might go back to that same puzzle some day.

Well the campaign is over. The DM was stubborn enough to ax the whole game over. The least he could do would be to cough up the answer.

Frankly, I'm a little disappointed at the level of vitriol being hurled at Roman's dm.

I agree its always best to be more politic in communication. Perhaps I have been to forceful in my expression of disappointment.

But I don't think the substance of what is being said is un-called for. No one has been able to figure out the puzzle and that's with lots of people thinking about it. So you have this GM who threw this unreasonable puzzle at his players and then axed the whole campaign when they couldn't solve it. I don't have an 18 intelligence in real life, but my wizard does. Why didn't the GM let people make some kind of intelligence chick? There are many ways he could have avoided this fate.

Instead, he was a stubborn ass about it, and I mean that in the four-legged sense. Weeks (months?) of character development and time invested by all of his players all out the window for his little caprice and power trip. This is GMing at its worst and it deserves all the derision it gets, if not in the manner in which some of us have posed it.

I respect that you feel contrary, Jester.

 

[the Jester]

Actually, I haven't spoken to the issue of it being a 'player puzzle' rather than a 'character puzzle.'

I would probably fill in a few squares for the party based on the highest Int check they could make or something, personally. I like riddles, puzzles and other 'tricks' like that, but I also try to reward pcs who build characters for social skills, intelligence, etc. It is sometimes hard to balance, but I think hints are the way.

 

[darkelfo]

Actually, I haven't spoken to the issue of it being a 'player puzzle' rather than a 'character puzzle.'

I would probably fill in a few squares for the party based on the highest Int check they could make or something, personally. I like riddles, puzzles and other 'tricks' like that, but I also try to reward pcs who build characters for social skills, intelligence, etc. It is sometimes hard to balance, but I think hints are the way.

I think it was Crothain posted a good system earlier with intelligence tied to how long it took to solve the puzzle. There were lots of ways around what happened to Roman's party.

 

[Errant]

Two points:

1. What's to prevent the players from trying again once they know the answer?

2. Who's to say that a different group of players, possibly including some of the same ones, won't encounter it some day?

I'm not necessarily talking about 'trying to use it again', I'm talking about pcs trying to solve it again.

Again, I'll reiterate: the mistake the dm made was making this impossible to retreat from. There's nothing wrong with doing other things while you work at a puzzle or riddle.

1. Straight up out of game warning from the DM that if they're given the solution they can't use it in game. If they rebel & insist they get past the puzzle to find the treasure room (or whatever the puzzle was protecting) was looted long ago by someone else.

2. They get past the puzzle to find the treasure room (or whatever the puzzle was protecting) was looted long ago by someone else, or they find another puzzle...

I agree entirely about it being bad for the dm to make it impossible to work around the puzzle.

Hell, why couldn't they PCs copy down the puzzle & go seek out a sage or something? That could even lead to another adventure (sure, I can decode that, but first I need you to...).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Hell, why couldn't they PCs copy down the puzzle & go seek out a sage or something? That could even lead to another adventure (sure, I can decode that, but first I need you to...).

Because they were trapped in the room with the puzzle, and there was nothing they could do to escape or contact the outside world. They tried.

And that's the best part, really. A puzzle that is virtually unsolvable and not literally everything depends on it. DM's doing things like that should be rounded up and shot, IMO.

 

[jeffh]

All right, I have to respond to this.

If I was the dm, and the puzzle was out there in my campaign world, and the pcs failed to solve it- I would not give them the answer. They might go back to that same puzzle some day.

-ahem-

Since you apparently missed it the first 37 times.

It ended the campaign.

There is no "coming back", there is no "some other day".

And if the GM is planning on using it again after this fiasco, then he does indeed deserve all the derision he's getting. Bad enough he made what is pretty close to the worst possible GMing mistake once; if he hasn't learned his lesson...

 

[Algolei]

Frankly, I'm a little disappointed at the level of vitriol being hurled at Roman's dm. He has told us in a couple of different posts that the guy is basically a good, fun dm; I don't think it's fair to judge him on a single puzzle taken, frankly, far out of context by everyone.

I concur. Just as you can't decide whether this puzzle has an answer based on the information given, you can't decide whether a DM is good at his job based on one event. I can certainly envision a situation where I would do the exact same thing.

Furthermore those who think the puzzle is impossible based on the fact that it's gone so long without being solved here aren't accounting for the ease which the DM's presence at the table can make. For instance, 9 dependent questions which you could ask and have answered in under a minute could take us 9 days to get answered over the internet.

Now then *rubs hands together* back to the puzzle.

From the other thread:

...the room we were in actually had three portals that spewed forth monsters and killed two party members (whom we revived though), but we destroyed the portals and are defeated by the puzzle.

This is the same room? Three gates, three different symbols in the puzzle. Is there a connection? Did the gates have these symbols on them? Do the monsters have the symbols on their bodies/equipment anywhere?

Plus you didn't answer how the symbols were to be entered into the puzzle. Were your characters supposed to write them in the blank spots? If so, were the other symbols written there previously? If so, how many different handwritings were used?

Tell us what the symbols in the puzzle looked like from a physical standpoint. Were they engraved onto a wall? Handwritten, as I asked about above? Were they tiles set into the puzzle? Perhaps there are more tiles somewhere which could be used to solve the puzzle.

Perhaps each symbol only needs to be put into the puzzle once to solve it--the rest could be left blank.

Who built this dungeon in the first place? Dwarves? Humans? The gods?

Tell me about your DM. How old is he? What kind of educational background does he have? What sort of hobbies does he enjoy? Does he like solving puzzles himself?

The symbols themselves are interesting, and we should figure out why they in particular were used. Did the DM use them only because they were available to him in excel? Or did he go to a lot of trouble to make them himself?