Defeated by puzzle - campaign over

[Gentlegamer]

In a way it is worse - he has a puzzle that the players can't solve.

If I were GM I would allow the players to try to solve it, but have a DC in the event they can not, the players are not the characters nor vice versa. A character may have an 18 Int even if the player does not. But I also like puzzles. (Though I try to be a bit less anachronistic about them.)

The Auld Grump

The only way character Int should play a role in this is that the referee should give some additional clues if the character's Int is very high. It is up to the player to solve the puzzle.

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

Sort of a mini-hijack:

If anyone is interested in a computer based game with some cool puzzles, try to find a copy of "Jewels of the Oracle", (www.dreamcatchergames.com). I don't know if they still make it, but it's a really cool rated "E" game full of puzzles. The whole thing is designed to have the look of a pseudo-Eqyptian tomb, and the puzzles look like something you'd find in a dungeon (made of stone, wood, painted symbols, etc). A DM with a laptop could set this game up and the PC's would have to solve the puzzle he selected. I love this game because of the look and the soundtrack. Perfect gaming material for a DM who loves puzzles and traps. Some are REALLY friggin' hard, too!

Edit: A search I did for this game also indicated it was published by Discis Entertainment.

 

[swrushing]

here is what I would do as a player...

1. Spend a reasonable amount of time trying to solve the puzzle in game. Reasonable being about the same as any other single scene would take, at leastv15 minutes and maybe as much as an hour. if that succeeds, then worry about whether its right for my character to do so. Assumning that fails...
2. Ask the Gm what skill this would be for my CHARACTER to solve the puzzle? Remind him, possibly in a non-challenging way by explaining it to another player, that PLAYER and CHARACTER knowledge and ability are two separate things. if he goes for it have characters who should try do so and see if that helps. Assuming that fails...
3. Look for other ways such as go thru the "magical means" to see if we can get a clue or an answer, look for ways around it, other possibilities, NPCs left behind, and maybe even try the silly Doom-esque "well what if the door in that room we saw yesterday was open" kind of nonsense. Assuming that fail...
4. Try and go out/back to find other resources, a sage in a town or somesuch. Assuming that fails...
5. Look at the Gm and say "Well our characters are clearly not able to solve this. What next?" if he goes into "spend more time" or "we wait until you do" or "hey, you must solve it" then start up another activity, possibly planning someone else's game or heck, maybe just play poker.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

The only way character Int should play a role in this is that the referee should give some additional clues if the character's Int is very high. It is up to the player to solve the puzzle.

No, as I said the player is not there, the character is. Why bother having character stats if you are going to have the player be the one to solve the puzzle?

That said, I would give extra XP for the players solving it, but to have a really stupid puzzle end the campaign is, well... really stupid.

The Auld Grump

 

[Gentlegamer]

No, as I said the player is not there, the character is. Why bother having character stats if you are going to have the player be the one to solve the puzzle?

That said, I would give extra XP for the players solving it, but to have a really stupid puzzle end the campaign is, well... really stupid.

The Auld Grump

Yes, but it is a game. Since the player isn't there how about the "storyteller" just tell them what happens?

Again, character's high Int should earn him some extra clues and such, but not be a "saving throw versus puzzle."

 

[swrushing]

The only way character Int should play a role in this is that the referee should give some additional clues if the character's Int is very high. It is up to the player to solve the puzzle.

The player doesn't have to cast a fireball when that is the answer to the challenge, the character does. The player doesn't have to use his nigh superhuman strength to wrest the black mace from the demon when that is the challenge, the character does.

Why is this different?

lets look at it another way... if the player were a smart fellow and the character and int 6 wisdom 6 barbarian bruiser, if the player saw thru the puzzle right away, should he tell everyone or should he decide that "in character" his barbie knows squat about "weighing no puny balls" and sit back and have his barbarian show lots of frustration, griping, and grumbling?

i had a case something like this a couple decades ago when i was playing for once where a Gm ran a dungeon for everyone's "favorite characters all together" and it turned out to be a "nothing works but solve the puzzles" magic null thingy "cannot leave" where every wrong answer cost you "permanent hit points" and such. of course, the questions had nothing to do with "in character" at all. Some were TV show catch phrases (one specifically set to match up to a player's favorite show, but that player (GM's brother!) did not join the campaign so we had no clue), one was the GMs social security number, and so forth. Some were significantly vague as to guarantee several failed tries (and lost "permanent hit points") such as "to pass this door you must shout the barbarian's oath" which had as the correct answer "lords of light" from Thundarr the barbarian which only the Gms brother watched. of course, our knowledge of Conan, kull, and several other barbarians cost us quite a few hit points.

That one did not end well either.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Yes, but it is a game. Since the player isn't there how about the "storyteller" just tell them what happens?

Again, character's high Int should earn him some extra clues and such, but not be a "saving throw versus puzzle."

That I have no problem with. But having it rely entirely on the players is a very bad idea too. I would reward the players for solving it, but having it come down to a die roll just gets you past the puzzle.

Having it be just the players is pure meta gaming.

Having it rely purely on die rolls is boring.

A compromise is the best way to handle it, whether your compromise or mine. Though I really hate the sounds of this puzzle. I could likely solve it, but it does not sound like something I would want in my game - I am more given to codes and cyphers.

The Auld Grump

The Auld Grump

 

[Tuzenbach]

Impassable puzzles are classic bottleneck design - something many, many adventures are plagued by - it ranks right up there with having to interact with a certain NPC or find a certain secret door to go forward. DMs who do this on a regular basis need to sit in the players' chairs for a while and feel the frustration. Not fun - you have my sympathy.

I beg to differ. As a player, the encounters I look forward to MOST are the puzzles and riddles! It's a much needed break from all those tedious dice-rollings and silly-voice-athons.

That said, I think the main thing a DM has to consider is the extent of the puzzle's difficulty and what to do if the party is stumped for more than one and a half gaming sessions. Because honestly, that'd be a real crappy way to end a campaign.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

The player doesn't have to cast a fireball when that is the answer to the challenge, the character does. The player doesn't have to use his nigh superhuman strength to wrest the black mace from the demon when that is the challenge, the character does.

Why is this different?

lets look at it another way... if the player were a smart fellow and the character and int 6 wisdom 6 barbarian bruiser, if the player saw thru the puzzle right away, should he tell everyone or should he decide that "in character" his barbie knows squat about "weighing no puny balls" and sit back and have his barbarian show lots of frustration, griping, and grumbling?

i had a case something like this a couple decades ago when i was playing for once where a Gm ran a dungeon for everyone's "favorite characters all together" and it turned out to be a "nothing works but solve the puzzles" magic null thingy "cannot leave" where every wrong answer cost you "permanent hit points" and such. of course, the questions had nothing to do with "in character" at all. Some were TV show catch phrases (one specifically set to match up to a player's favorite show, but that player (GM's brother!) did not join the campaign so we had no clue), one was the GMs social security number, and so forth. Some were significantly vague as to guarantee several failed tries (and lost "permanent hit points") such as "to pass this door you must shout the barbarian's oath" which had as the correct answer "lords of light" from Thundarr the barbarian which only the Gms brother watched. of course, our knowledge of Conan, kull, and several other barbarians cost us quite a few hit points.

That one did not end well either.

That one sounds like a 'sorry Bob, you're never DMing again, and we are saying that the adventure never happened' situation (roll eyes emoticon where art thou?). At least the guy with the Rubik's Cube backed down when he saw a bunch of disgruntled players.

The Auld Grump

 

[Gentlegamer]

The term "metgaming" is used a bit too freely, methinks . . .

It is a GAME. It is the PLAYERS being challenged, not the characters.

There could be room for protest if insufficient clues were given before hand, BUT if they HAD been given and the PLAYERS did not attend to them at the time, then they deserve to be beaten by the puzzle.