Defenders aren't very good at defending?

[keterys]

I've played the fighter a bit and grouped with other people, and I've had and gotten nothing but serious respect for the fighter's defending abilities. Being able to bottleneck with combat superiority, negate melee attacks with shield push, etc.

 

[Storminator]

Fighters also have a lot of powers that knock people prone, or stun, daze, slow or immobilize them. All of those prevent enemies from moving around and whacking guys like warlocks and wizards and archery rangers.

PS

 

[Tony Vargas]

Our fighter was dropped in the KotS encounter with Irontooth. She viewed it IC as a 'failure' and is now dedicated to being a damage sponge. She took Unstoppable, has Comeback Strike and just took Toughness. Her surge value is 14, and she has 11 of them. Sheesh. If you consider surges+hps, she can soak up over 200 hps in a day, at 4th level. I think they're OK as far as being able to take damage goes.

As far as AC is concerned, a defender's AC can be /too/ high. If it's substantially more than 2 higher than those he's protecting with his mark, it becomes worthwhile for enemies to completely ignore him - 'Challenge' damage or no - and that's actually /failing/ at being a defender. Shield Defender AC is trivially 19 or 20 at first level, and goes up from thier based on magical armor acquired. Striker AC is likely 16 or 17 at 1st, assuming an 18 DEX, and only keeps pace with heavy armor if DEX (or INT, for a Warlock) is boosted at every opportunity. So the defenders have 1-3 AC on strikers.

Leaders can get defener-like AC with heavy armor & shield feats, but the preqs can be tough to scrape together. A 'lazer' Cleric can prettymuch forget it, and a Warlord or Battle Cleric has to balance investing in enough CON for heavy armor proficiency vs secondary and other tertiary stats, so it's not an easy thing. Armor specialization for a leader can be a pain to qualify for, too. My Warlord won't have armor specialization until Epic level, for instance, while his Fighter ally will easily qualify at 11th.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

The fighter is a good defender because of his higher durability combined with the ability to stop people from moving. The paladin simply isn't as good at lower levels. Later on they do much better when it's the big bad single enemy but not all fights are set up like that. Overall I think the fighter is a much better defender. The paladin strikes me as a leader/defender hybrid.

As an example at level 1 most paladins have a 20 ac. 8 from plate, 2 from heavy shield. A rogue with 18 dex ends up with a 16 or so ac ( leather 2, 4 from dex, maybe 17 ac if he wears hide.)

Now the Paladin and Rogue flank a target and the Paladin challenges it. Paladin damage ( with 18 cha ) 1d8+4, plus 7 ( for the challenge ). 15.5 damage average. Rogue will be doing 1d4+2d8+4+3( either str with brutal scoundrel, or dex with sly flourish). This is 17.5 damage. So, the marked target can attack the easier to hit/more damage dealing rogue ( even with the minus 2 from being marked), or he can mess around with the pally for some reason.

 

[Stalker0]

The fighter is a good defender because of his higher durability combined with the ability to stop people from moving. The paladin simply isn't as good at lower levels.

I think the paladin's mark is awesome at 1-2nd level. The amount of damage it deals is a very painful incentive to monsters. However, past that point the hp of monster's start to increase the mark's damage does not increase to match.

Still, at higher level's the paladin can select powers that greatly increase his defending ability. First of all, his lay on hands lets him heal his allies should his standard defending abilities not cut the mustard. Enfeebling strike is a good at-will for degrading an opponent's attack, whoever he's hitting. On pain of death increases the punishment when an enemy attacks. Martyr's Blessing allows the paladin to absorb another's damage...etc.

I think its important not to get too caught up with roles, instead its important to consider whether one class is as useful to the party as another. A paladin provides more healing, buffs, virtual AC bonuses, and the occasional damage kick. He has the most efficient healing surges, and plenty of them. Is that as useful to the party as having let's say another ranger who just does raw damage? Ultimately to me, that's the real question of whether a defender does his job.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Paladin damage ( with 18 cha ) 1d8+4, plus 7 ( for the challenge ). 15.5 damage average. Rogue will be doing 1d4+2d8+4+3( either str with brutal scoundrel, or dex with sly flourish). This is 17.5 damage.

Assuming they're flanking, they're probably hitting around 60%, so the actual DPR is more like 8.5*.6 = 5.1 +7 = 12.1 for the pally, and 17.5*.6 = 10.5 for the rogue. But, that's /if/ you attack the rogue. If you attack the paladin, you only take 15.6 DPR, instead of 22.6 - if you're less 90 ps, that's the difference between lasting 4 rounds and lasting 6. Also, killing the rogue isn't the only way to stop granting CA, if you can manuever so he can't flank, the rogue's DPR drops to 4.25, while the paladins (if you don't attack him) only drops to 11.25. That challenge damage is automatic if you don't include the pally in your attack, and that's significant in 4e.

 

[frankthedm]

But it's not just the AC difference. The monster marked by the fighter has a -2 and the fighter gets a free attack. The paladin just does damage in addition to the -2.

Those happen once per round. Missile firing minions happen much more than that.

 

[baberg]

Those happen once per round. Missile firing minions happen much more than that.

Not in my group - two Dragonborn Fighters means that even the fraking minions get marked

I've really gotta put them into more tight corners, or huge wide open fields where the ranged attackers can really flank and spread out. I know my PCs don't feel as challenged as they should for most of our fights.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I've forked the Combat Challenge discussion to here.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Regicide]

As far as AC is concerned, a defender's AC can be /too/ high. If it's substantially more than 2 higher than those he's protecting with his mark, it becomes worthwhile for enemies to completely ignore him - 'Challenge' damage or no - and that's actually /failing/ at being a defender.

If the defender is too hard to hit, it becomes worthwhile for the enemies to flee, not fight someone else. If they have any hope of living through the combat they'll have to kill the defender eventually too. Therefore the best way for the defender to do their job is to be unhitable while still posing a threat to the enemy.