# WOINDefense Cap

#### Martin Kallesen

##### Kall
Greetings, I am back with yet another question that I wish to obtain some clarification regarding.

Regarding defense
In WOIN O.L.D 1.2, page 67:
"If the final score is less than 10, increase it to 10. Your Defense score is capped by your maximum dice pool. Multiply your maximum dice pool by 4; your Defense scores cannot exceed this number."

I can see in an old thread:
that back then the cap didn't cover size and exploit.

So how does that function in 1.2? Because now it does mention size, but it does not mention exploits as far as I can read.
And is it applicable to N.O.W and N.E.W?

Thank you all for taking the time to read and potentially answer my question.
Kind regards
-Kall

#### RockyWilliams

##### Explorer
Unless I'm mis-remembering something, but dice cap NEVER includes exploits. The cap is always figured, then exploits added.

#### Morrus

##### Well, that was fun
Staff member
I have a sticky thread about how dice pool caps apply here:

#### Martin Kallesen

##### Kall
Does that also count when the Defence specifically states the "Multiply your maximum dice pool by 4; your Defense scores cannot exceed this number." "
Or are the exploits applied after this sentence?

Last edited:

#### Len

##### Prodigal Member
It's confusing because there are two separate caps. First you make a dice pool, which is subject to the normal cap for dice pools, then you convert the dice pool to a static number, then adjust for size, shield, armour, and finally that result is capped by 4 times max dice pool.

That last part, the limit of 4 times max dice pool, is not mentioned in N.O.W. or N.E.W. which is another thing that confuses me.

Sorry I can't answer your question, Martin. I think I need some clarification too.

#### Morrus

##### Well, that was fun
Staff member
The 4 times dice pool applies to the original dice pool. It's the average (just above) roll of that dice pool.

#### Martin Kallesen

##### Kall
So to specify completely, the cap "Multiply your maximum dice pool by 4; your Defense scores cannot exceed this number. "
Only covers:
Attribute+Gear(Quality)+Skill+Size.

So theoretically one could have a Mental Defence of 29 at Grade 5 by having reached the Cap of 20(by attributes and skills), and then having Strong Mind (which is a career exploit, that gives +4 Mental Defence) as well as Unshakeable faith. (+5 Mental Defence)?

If I am understanding you correctly?

#### Morrus

##### Well, that was fun
Staff member
That's hella munchkiny, but yes.

(I'm surprised those two stack; probably an oversight).

#### Martin Kallesen

##### Kall
Indeed, and I do apologise, it was a Random example to illustrate my question. I could also have used one exploit in the example.
Also, is it applicable in N.O.W and N.E.W as well?

Thank you for elaborating as you have.

#### Morrus

##### Well, that was fun
Staff member
Yep, there are no unique rules or exceptions for different genres -- they all apply universally.

#### Martin Kallesen

##### Kall
Perfect. Thank you very much for clarifying this, this has helped immensely on my lack of understanding.

Also, a random note, in the Old 1.2. I do not know if it is on purpose, but the book switches back and forth from defence to defense.

#### Len

##### Prodigal Member
The 4 times dice pool applies to the original dice pool. It's the average (just above) roll of that dice pool.

In that case it's confusing the way it's written, because the sentence about limiting to 4 times MDP is at the very end, in the same paragraph as the minimum limit of 10, and it doesn't seem related to the average dice roll calculation which was done earlier.

#### Morrus

##### Well, that was fun
Staff member
In that case it's confusing the way it's written
I gathered that, from the existence of this thread.

#### Martin Kallesen

##### Kall
In that case Morrus, Would it be possible to get you to write out an example containing

Attribute+Skill+Equipment(e.g Shield)-Equipment(armour)+Equipment Quality+Size+a random exploit that fits
and illustrate where the Max Cap is, and which parts come after

So we have it directly written from you in a thread for when other people also try to look it up.

#### Morrus

##### Well, that was fun
Staff member
Do what, now?

As in the sticky thread, it's Attribute + Skill + Equipment dice pools. Everything else comes after.

#### Martin Kallesen

##### Kall
Write out an example for the Defense pool that covers an example of the different possible variables. With a clear marking of what is part of the maximum defence (4x Grade) thus giving a clear idea of what counts as part of the capped pool, and what doesn't.

Doesn't mention size, but the 1.2 Old does bring up size before mentioning the capped defence pool.

#### Morrus

##### Well, that was fun
Staff member
I'll try and do that this week sometime. Remind me if I don't.

Will do.
Thank you

#### Morrus

##### Well, that was fun
Staff member
Basically a DEFENSE dice pool is identical to any other dice pool. It's not an exception and doesn't work differently to any other dice pool. The only thing is that we average it to save time rather than rolling it each time. A description of it will be the same as a description of any other dice pool.

#### Martin Kallesen

##### Kall
So the Maximum on the Defense Dice pool is the same as any other dice pool?
Then what is the point of writing the whole "your Defense scores cannot exceed this number" Line?

Because it appears as though this is what is causing the confusion.

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