Defense vs. Time Stop

[green slime]

Also......what do you expect the party to do then about the DM's death trap?

And are PCs supposed to be mocked and punished for not being very familiar with high-level play, if they haven't necessarily played at such levels before?

If they are playing at that level, they should be interested enough in the game to actually make themselves familiar. There have been lots of good suggestions in this thread. Having a quickened spell prepared. Disguising themselves with illusions, shielding themselves from scying, so they aren't so easily detected.

I think it sounds like the DM in this case is doing a good job. Where did you get the idea he was mocking or punishing them? Seems to me they had an unexpected adventure in the Abyss, after which, they were really not much worse off for wear, apart from being slightly chagrinned, and motivated to find a counter strategy. You expect PC's to live a life of luxury, with opponents that just fall over when the P's enter the same building?

 

[Milagroso]

Wouldn't Dimensional Anchor be useful here? Not sure what level the spell is as I am away from my books at the moment.

 

[Quartz]

The first trick is to not be there. Magnificent Mansion, Rope Trick, Tiny Hut, et al all prevent the initial Passwall. Anti-scrying devices will prevent the enemy from locating you in the first place.

 

[irdeggman]

Se essentially the wizard has "surprised" the party, used his standard action to cast Time Stop and then do all of the other effects during this period?

If I've read that correctly then:

Get the party to increase their Spot checks (to not be "surprised"), Initiative rolls (to beat the wizard in actions) and then spread out out and get him before he can act Haste works great hin this circumstance.

Something that also might work is a symbol spell on one of the PC's armor (of course having all of the PCs know the pass word) - like Symbol of Stunning. Which would negate the wizard's actions.

The reverse gravity/gate trick, while sounding impressive isn't nearly so.

The gate is above your heads (I would rule that it opens in the same orientation wherever it is located) - reverse gravity won't affect the other side of the gate so you come back through it as fast as you went through it the first time, pretty much having no effect except an impressively comedic picture.

Passwall only works on a single wall (or solid material) per casting. So if the wizard is going through multiple walls to get to you he is using multiple castings.

I agree with I2000's comments on what the DM is attempting to do. If he was being an arse he would have killed the party outright, repeatedly. He is exposing weaknesses in design and planning that the group has and getting them to think in a different manner than they had been.

 

[JoelF]

First of all, thanks for all of the advise, everyone. Second of all, the DM is in no way abusing us, if anything he's being very creative in dealing with our otherwise successful builds (my Dwarven Defender has an AC of 45 before defensive stancing - for him to hit me in combat has always been a problem without also simultaneously wiping the floor with the rest of the party. The two spellcastes both use all sorts of quickened spells, etc.) I applaud our DM for constantly having to find chinks in our armor which he generally can only use for a short time before we patch up with new feats/spells/equipment or tactics.

The quickened spells don't help vs the gate though since we all fall into it before we even can roll for initiative - only an immediate action such as feather fall or other spell with immediate action casting time can work. Feather fall might slow us enough to have an action before hitting the gate, but alas we didn't have that prepared either (and you still fall 1 foot pretty quick when you're falling 60 feet/ round, so I can see the argument about not even getting to act before then. )

The DM has also ruled that since the caster can control the orientation of the gate, we fall up into it, then down into the abyss out the other side. I'm not sure I agree with that ruling, but I do see it as a grey area which could be argued either way and therefore the DM's interpretation is just as valid as mine. On the other side of the gate we had fallen far enough that by the time we got flying magic going, we were too far from the gate to cross back before the caster dropped concentration and closed it.

The strategic situation also prevents us from using many of the suggestions about staying in an extra-dimensional space and preventing scrying, since we're trying to defend a series of fortifications from the spellcaster, so she knows exactly where we are, and we need to be in the normal world to try to react to her attacks. I like the idea of multiple walls to stop the passwall though - permanent walls of force would be even better.

I'll have to try to convince the wizards to use contingency with greater dispel magic when time stopped, hopefully the caster level check would take down either the reverse gravity or gate and break the combo.

 

[Nail]

The strategic situation also prevents us from using many of the suggestions about staying in an extra-dimensional space and preventing scrying, since we're trying to defend a series of fortifications from the spellcaster.....

Here's your real mistake.

"Defending" at high level in 3.5e D&D is a losers game. Given all the possible options a Wizard 17th+ level has, "defending" anything is just a big fat waste of time. It's time to think outside the box, son.

(Read that again, for emphasis: Losers Game.)


For example: The BBEG "knows where you are", eh? Great! Play off of that, and set up an ambush.

 

[cheshire_grin]

The best defense is a good offense, and all that...

 

[Nail]

The best defense is a good offense, and all that...

Exactly.

Exactly.

In 3.5e D&D, the best way to "defend" something is to go out and destroy the Bad Guys. To paraphrase Belkar: "Sitting around waiting to be attacked is for suckers."

 

[Jack Simth]

First of all, thanks for all of the advise, everyone. Second of all, the DM is in no way abusing us, if anything he's being very creative in dealing with our otherwise successful builds (my Dwarven Defender has an AC of 45 before defensive stancing - for him to hit me in combat has always been a problem without also simultaneously wiping the floor with the rest of the party. The two spellcastes both use all sorts of quickened spells, etc.) I applaud our DM for constantly having to find chinks in our armor which he generally can only use for a short time before we patch up with new feats/spells/equipment or tactics.

The quickened spells don't help vs the gate though since we all fall into it before we even can roll for initiative - only an immediate action such as feather fall or other spell with immediate action casting time can work. Feather fall might slow us enough to have an action before hitting the gate, but alas we didn't have that prepared either (and you still fall 1 foot pretty quick when you're falling 60 feet/ round, so I can see the argument about not even getting to act before then. )

This is the first part where the DM's being an annoyance - you don't have a chance with a Core build unless you're 1) constantly flying (very expensive), 2) immune to planar travel (very annoying, and very likely to turn sour), or 3) immune to being located (and you don't have access to Mind Blank) due to the DM's ruling that you fall on the Wizard's turn (and the Wizard who's attacking you is so far only showing evidence of Core spells, from what you've described - Passwall, Time Stop, Reverse Gravity, and Gate). Due to this ruling, when you lose initiative against this guy (and, as he's on the offense, and strikes from the other side of a wall, you can't WIN initiative), you LOSE, no save - but there are ways to bypass initiative - the Wizard is doing that; Time Stop out of combat, take actions as the spell says, and have you in a "death trap" that takes you some time to exit (but, due to the DM otherwise playing softball, doesn't slaughter your characters).

You've got access to high enough level magic that you can arrange to beat this directly and stick around... but it drips cheese and has drawbacks. I'll get to it later.

The DM has also ruled that since the caster can control the orientation of the gate, we fall up into it, then down into the abyss out the other side. I'm not sure I agree with that ruling, but I do see it as a grey area which could be argued either way and therefore the DM's interpretation is just as valid as mine. On the other side of the gate we had fallen far enough that by the time we got flying magic going, we were too far from the gate to cross back before the caster dropped concentration and closed it.

The other annoying ruling on your DM's part.

Both are gray areas, to be sure - but do keep in mind that your DM is ruling in the most favorable way for the tactic that his NPC is using.

The strategic situation also prevents us from using many of the suggestions about staying in an extra-dimensional space and preventing scrying, since we're trying to defend a series of fortifications from the spellcaster, so she knows exactly where we are, and we need to be in the normal world to try to react to her attacks. I like the idea of multiple walls to stop the passwall though - permanent walls of force would be even better.

I'll have to try to convince the wizards to use contingency with greater dispel magic when time stopped, hopefully the caster level check would take down either the reverse gravity or gate and break the combo.

Not legal with Contingency - it has to be a spell which affects yourself. Also not overly likely to succeed - if you've only got access to 7th level spells, you're probably a bit behind on caster level.

***WARNING CHEESE ALERT***
[sblock]Contingent Celerity for the next time it happens. Contingency is 6th, Celerity is 4th. Your party should have access to the spells levels needed. Then cast a Wall spell - I suggest a Wall of Ice, as it can be in any orientation and cast in just about any environment; plus it's low level - in such a way as to block off the Gate.[/sblock]

Edit: Yeah, plus what others have said - Scry/Buff/Teleport (or in your case, Plane Shift/Scry/Buff/Teleport just after he's pulled this on you. I'd normally advise against it, but it's essentially what your DM is already pulling on you, so....

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'll repeat, scry/buff/teleport simply will not work at high level. The scry is (or darn will should be) useless. The teleport can be extraordinarily dangerous.