Defensive Healing Word Cheese

[holywhitetrash]

i don't really see it as a problem
+2 against the first attack so the monster might miss the first round
it is even less of a detriment if there is a controller (or whatever the monster equivalent might be) is in the encounter

 

[Kzach]

...but it also signaled to me that the other leaders were probably intended NOT to be allowed to apply their healing power bonuses during a short rest (otherwise, song of rest is redundant) unless they didn't spend their healing powers during the preceding encounter.

Your signals are crossed:

Using Powers while You Rest: If you use an encounter power (such as a healing power) during a short rest, you need another short rest to renew it so that you can use it again.

i don't really see it as a problem
+2 against the first attack so the monster might miss the first round
it is even less of a detriment if there is a controller (or whatever the monster equivalent might be) is in the encounter

It's not +2, it's Charisma-based. At 1st-level, most spell-based clerics will have 16 Charisma and keep bumping it as they go up. By 30th-levle, the bonus to defences against the first attack is probably around +7 or even +8.

 

[N0Man]

Still, it really isn't that big of a deal is it? It's against just the next attack. A single area spell could potentially strip the party of the bonus.

Leaders have some powerful party defense abilities. I'm glad that 4E made healers interesting enough that people actually want to play them now. I can't tell how many times I've played the "Ok, which one of you is going to play the cleric? C'mon, someone has to play it! Guys!?"-game.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I ahve no problems with this if it is limited tothe encounter and ddoes not continue past a short rewst.

Which seems to be the way it should work, odd readings of the rules not withstanding.

It seems to me that there is an unwritten rule that all effects end atthe end of the encounter and this could use a specific wording, but the unwritten rule is enough for my groups.

 

[DracoSuave]

I think the way to fix this problem is not to let the PCs stack multiple short rests back to back. I used to allow this when my party only included a cleric b/c I didn't really see any reason not to allow it.

No Limit per Day: You can take as many short rests per day as you want.
Using Powers while You Rest: If you use an encounter power (such as a healing power) during a short rest, you need another short rest to renew it so that you can use it again.

Seems they put a lot of effort in to say 'Actually, yes, there is no limitation on short rests, and here's an example of how to use it. Healing powers, it would seem, are not only kosher to use during short rests, but they flat out give them directly as an example, then say you can take another short rest to renew them.

However, my party now includes a bard. the bards "song of rest" is specifically designed to prevent this sort of behavior b/c all PCs add the static bonus to all healing surges spent during that rest... but it also signaled to me that the other leaders were probably intended NOT to be allowed to apply their healing power bonuses during a short rest (otherwise, song of rest is redundant) unless they didn't spend their healing powers during the preceding encounter.

If leaders were not intended to use their powers during a short rest, why is there a feat called Restful Healing sitting in that same book bards come in that flat out say 'Use your powers during a short rest to gain a bonus?'

It is really hard to claim Rules as Intended, when they give you feat options that only work during stuff you claim is verbotten.

All that said... a short rest is five minutes long. Sometimes there's a sense of urgency and five minutes is all the time you have. It depends on the call of the story. But sitting there and going 'BAH THE RULES DON'T SAY YOU CAN' when they verbatim do... is foolish.

Big deal. People get to use their healing surges more efficiently out of combat than in combat. They get rewarded for taking longer rests. How is this a bad thing, exactly? Last I heard, healing surge efficiency wasn't a breaking point of the game... you still only have the same amount of healing use -in encounters- and if it means they can have more encounters per day, that is a Good Thing(TM) not a Bad Thing(TM).

So now, a "short rest" is that stretch of time between encounters, not something the PCs actually have to do.

And it is about five minutes long.

Duration: A short rest is about 5 minutes long.

It is automatic and includes all of those post encounter activities that are so common: healing, looting, searching for secret doors, etc... and it lasts as long as it needs to... but the PCs don't get to recharge their powers and then have an encounter that doesn't include any challenges.

Provided 'as long as it needs to' is 'about five minutes long.' The book is pretty clear about the duration of a short rest. And clear you can take more than one, or as many as you like in a day. The 'must have an encounter in between' is artificial.

I guess I sort of look at this the same way as the warlock that carries around the bag of mice to curse and kill to trigger pact boons... awfully cheesy.

What breaks if you allow it? IF it is broken, something breaks. What breaks?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The song of rest power allows short rests to be 5 minutes while using full healing efficiency...

and if you happen to be disturbed while you rest, you still have your majestic word powers ready... using healing ords during short rests is RISKY

 

[DracoSuave]

The song of rest power allows short rests to be 5 minutes while using full healing efficiency...

and if you happen to be disturbed while you rest, you still have your majestic word powers ready... using healing ords during short rests is RISKY

Yup. Sometimes, you can afford a good fifteen minutes. Sometimes, you're in the enemy base killin' their dudes, and fifteen minutes is what you ain't got.

 

[kugelkj]

My point really wasn't so much about what the rules do and do not allow... more about what works at my gaming table... perhaps I chimed in at the wrong time.

In response: If I said leaders weren't intended to use their healing powers during a short rest, I misspoke. I meant to say leaders weren't intended to have their encounter healing powers available during a short rest UNLESS they were unexpended during an encounter (which still makes the restful healing feat useful, though less so, but gives you an incentive to save healing powers). Nor does the text quoted by DracoSuave and others support the idea that there is no limit to the number of short rest between encounters... only that there is not limit to then number of rests you can take PER DAY (as the text states clearly).

What breaks? I got very tired of asking my players "Do you take a short rest? How many do you need? What do you do during your short rest?" etc... I tracked it for a while and then realized its pointless. I also got tired of them working the system for maximum surge efficiency... all the stuff that happens during a short rest is uninteresting from a story-telling point of view (IMHO). short rest is down time weather its 5 min or an hour... nothing is happening. after an encounter my PCs spend surges, loot, search, examine, etc... all without having to do any meta-gaming. why waste all that REAL time?

If healing surge efficiency isn't going to make or break the game, what is the big deal by saying you can't use encounter healing powers in an unlimited fashion?

 

[BobTheNob]

...
It seems to me that there is an unwritten rule that all effects end atthe end of the encounter and this could use a specific wording, but the unwritten rule is enough for my groups.

Thats my take as well. Nothing should really roll over from encounter to encounter unless it is literally stated or it feels in the "flavor" of the power. Given healing word is an encounter power, I would apply the rule of thumb in this scenario, and therefore not have players start with a defense bonus.