Defensive Staff Wizard vs. Deadly Orb Wizard

[Mistwell]

I am trying to decide between two builds, and I wanted some advice from folks who have played wizards more than I have.

Both builds will use humans, with point buy, and I would prefer an illusion theme if possible. I will be playing with a fairly well balanced group, and all the roles except controller are covered by the group.

The first build is an Orb wizard. Int 16 (18), Wis 16, Con 12, Chr 12 (for Spell Focus later), Dex 10, Str. 8. To gain advantage from the orb, this wizard will select Sleep as one of his daily spells (and flaming sphere as the other one), and Thunderwave as an at-will (to take advantage of the higher wis). The other two at-wills will be illusory ambush (or cloud of daggers, if someone can talk me into that) and scorching burst. Encounter will be grasping shadows. Eventually, there will be more spells that benefit from a high wisdom, and of course the orb ability will come into play more at higher levels with the reduction to saving throws. Feats are likely improved initiative (to try and get a grasping shadows off early at a group of baddies) and action surge (to spend on my daily most often, to make sure it hits).

This wizard has more potential to deal out deadly spells, but a lot of that is in the future. For example, his sleep spell may well essentially kill things once a day. However, this wizard also lacks hit points, and has a low AC.

The second wizard is a staff wielding one. Mostly the same build as before, but the two feats will be leather armor and hide armor, for a total AC of 18 at first level. Wis and Con will be flipped, so he will have more hit points and his staff power will be more effective. This wizard will be harder to hit, and more durable. However, his potential to deal out death in the future is a bit lower, he will almost never go first and thus will have a hard time hitting a group of enemies at the beginning, and his daily will miss more often without action surge. Also his thunderwave only pushes one square, and he cannot deny saving throws like the orb wizard can.

So, what do you think? Which build do you think tends to be better in play? Any suggestions?

 

[WalterKovacs]

For hide proficiency, you need to go with 13 STR in addition to your high con.

Also, as you go into higher levels, you do have the option of adding in the feats you missed. For example, your orb wizard can take leather proficiency to get the higher AC. With your staff wizard you may go with 12 STR, perhaps instead of the 12 CHA, and when you hit paragon tier you can get hide armor with hide specialization, in case you care about the skill penalty (you may not).

Ultimately, you only get your staff benefit for high con 1/encounter, so you can afford to go with, perhaps, 14 con and 14 wisdom. You'd still have the AC bonus, and you can get the better armor profs if you want, and you don't give up as much utility in the powers that use wisdom.

You don't have to make it a binary choice, you can take a middle ground between utilty and survivability. The best situation would be for the orb wizard to perhaps wait until level 2 to take either improved initiative or action surge to start with leather armor. After that, you can always take feats like toughness and durable to make the character healthier, but it's harder to improve what the orb can get you. The illusion based power is probably the best at-will to extend with the orb, not to mention it targets will. I'd probably go with action surge early and wait until 2nd level to take improved initiative so you have the leather armor right off the bat.

 

[Mistwell]

For hide proficiency, you need to go with 13 STR in addition to your high con.

Also, as you go into higher levels, you do have the option of adding in the feats you missed. For example, your orb wizard can take leather proficiency to get the higher AC. With your staff wizard you may go with 12 STR, perhaps instead of the 12 CHA, and when you hit paragon tier you can get hide armor with hide specialization, in case you care about the skill penalty (you may not).

Ultimately, you only get your staff benefit for high con 1/encounter, so you can afford to go with, perhaps, 14 con and 14 wisdom. You'd still have the AC bonus, and you can get the better armor profs if you want, and you don't give up as much utility in the powers that use wisdom.

You don't have to make it a binary choice, you can take a middle ground between utilty and survivability. The best situation would be for the orb wizard to perhaps wait until level 2 to take either improved initiative or action surge to start with leather armor. After that, you can always take feats like toughness and durable to make the character healthier, but it's harder to improve what the orb can get you. The illusion based power is probably the best at-will to extend with the orb, not to mention it targets will. I'd probably go with action surge early and wait until 2nd level to take improved initiative so you have the leather armor right off the bat.

Hmm. That is a fair point. Do you (and others) feel the orbs utility to reduce saves at higher levels is simply unmatched in relation to the staffs ability?

 

[ilmoin]

Hmm. That is a fair point. Do you (and others) feel the orbs utility to reduce saves at higher levels is simply unmatched in relation to the staffs ability?

Staff means that you'll (probably) negate one hit every combat. Orb means that you'll will (probably) stick a (save ends) effect to a normal opponent once a combat if you can hit them. (It is important to note that there are almost no save end encounter powers.)

But its actually a false choice: you can just take Second Implement in Paragon tier and use both Staff and Orb. So why not take the useful Staff to begin with and leave the mostly useless Orb until your Wisdom is high enough to have a significant effect?

 

[WalterKovacs]

Staff means that you'll (probably) negate one hit every combat. Orb means that you'll will (probably) stick a (save ends) effect to a normal opponent once a combat if you can hit them. (It is important to note that there are almost no save end encounter powers.)

But its actually a false choice: you can just take Second Implement in Paragon tier and use both Staff and Orb. So why not take the useful Staff to begin with and leave the mostly useless Orb until your Wisdom is high enough to have a significant effect?

However, you cannot simultaneously wield a staff and an orb. If you take the spiral tower path you can use a sword as if it was a staff, and then you can wield both at the same time. While it is true that you'll rarely get your wis bonus penalty applied every encounter, the illusion at-will (-2 penalty to attacks on the target) is a solid enough effect to use the orbs sustain effect on.

In either case, wisdom is the best secondary stat. While a +1 to your defences 1/encounter is less likely to come into pay, the +1 AC is the main reason to take the staff. [Also, if you are allowed to use DDI powers, you can get the feat that treats the staff as a dual weapon with the defensive property and thus another +1 to your AC]

 

[Enaloindir]

Actually, you can use a staff one-handed as an implement. It's only when you want to use it to attack in melee that you need to use both hands. Therefore, you could wield both an orb and a staff as long as you don't attack in melee. Even then, you can always use Mage Hand to hold one of the implements, and switch between both with a minor action...

- Enaloindir

 

[WalterKovacs]

Actually, you can use a staff one-handed as an implement. It's only when you want to use it to attack in melee that you need to use both hands. Therefore, you could wield both an orb and a staff as long as you don't attack in melee. Even then, you can always use Mage Hand to hold one of the implements, and switch between both with a minor action...

- Enaloindir

I seem to recall that you have to wield a staff two handed to use it as an implement (and get the mastery bonuses) ... considering that part of the quarterstaff implement was (a) you can't wield it with a shield or (b) with another weapon, and that is part of why it's the only implement you can use as a weapon and gives a bonus to AC.

 

[Baumi]

I have a 5th level Human Orb-Wizard and while I like the Wizard itself, I'm quite disappointed with the Orb-Mastery.

The problem is that the save-penalty (wis 15 now Wis 16) is very seldom used at low levels since only daily powers have a save feature (you have only one or two of them), you must hit first, it only works against one enemy and most of the time the penalty is not enough to make a difference.

So far it didn't helped me once in my lvl5 career and I only stick to it because it fit's my character and I hope that it will get better later on when I have more Save Spells.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I seem to recall that you have to wield a staff two handed to use it as an implement (and get the mastery bonuses)

I'm afraid you are remembering wrong. Only one handed as an implement.

Cheers

 

[WalterKovacs]

I'm afraid you are remembering wrong. Only one handed as an implement.

Cheers

Just wondering where that is [or a simple, they don't say you have to wield it two handed]. I know that you can get the magical property as long as you are holding [the two implements for a warlock thing], and you definitely not wielding it one handed as a weapon [people wanting to use two weapon defense with it]. However, the mastery does specify needing to wield the implement, but I don't really see anything in the PHB about wielding the staff either way.

On orb mastery ... it's important to remember that the other effect is the more common part, so making sure it's usuable every fight is important. Cloud of daggers isn't really that useful in that regard ... you do need either the ray of frost or the illussion based penalty to attacks to really get a use out of it every encounter.