Defensive Staff Wizard vs. Deadly Orb Wizard

[thecasualoblivion]

Orb Wizards are powerful and can really mess up a single enemy once per combat. In general, they are the most powerful Wizard build.

Staff Wizards have the potential to be as or more durable as the average Laser Cleric or Bow Ranger, which isn't anything to sneeze at. The main benefits the Staff is the flexibility to use the often more powerful close attacks Wizards get, and the fact that magical Staffs are generally more powerful than other implements.

 

[Keenath]

You're going to have a hard time finding enough decent save-ends effects to bother with the orb before Paragon. If it were me, I would skip the Hide armor and just take the Leather feat for +2 AC. With the Staff of Defense, you can have a decent 17 AC at first level and spend your human bonus feat on something more valuable, like Improved Initiative.

That said, I wouldn't try to change implements at Paragon. If you've laid your scores out at 1st, it'll be a real pain to try to switch which one has a good score. If your Orb of Imposition can only put down a -2 penalty, it's not so great.

One more comment, though; the powers are set up in a kind of interesting way so that you can't munchkin as much as you might expect. If you go with the staff, you'll be tougher than the average wizard and probably want to mix it up at close range more often. That encourages you to take Close powers like Thunderwave and Fire Shroud, which are both more obvious picks for an Orb wizard -- TW because, like orb, it gives a benefit for high wisdom, and Fire Shroud is the only encounter power that grants a save-ends effect for your Orb to work with.


So my suggestion is really this:
Pick whichever one you want. Don't worry about pimping your wizard. Just do what's fun to you, and you'll probably never even miss the fact that you weren't able to permanently blind Orcus.

 

[scarik]

Just wondering where that is [or a simple, they don't say you have to wield it two handed].

A Staff is not a Quarterstaff.

Nowhere in any book does it say a Staff (implement) has to be wielded in both hands and its against all fantasy fiction to require the staff be held in both hands to cast spells.

Now it may be used as a Quarterstaff, but that isn't the same a being a Quarterstaff.

So you can not only use an Orb and a Staff, but you can dual wield Staves while having a Light Shield on one arm (since it lets you hold items) so you can have a Defensive Staff and your favorite offensive Staff while gaining +1 Reflex and AC.

Is that incerdibly silly looking? Yes, but that's not the point of this particular strawman.

 

[Obryn]

Thunderwave as an at-will (to take advantage of the higher wis). The other two at-wills will be illusory ambush (or cloud of daggers, if someone can talk me into that) and scorching burst.

I love cloud of daggers...

Although the range is short, it's an automatic minion-killer. Additionally, with your Wisdom, it does more damage than Magic Missile (1d6+4+delayed 3, vs. 2d4+4).

I think it's a great way to control the environment... Yes, it's easy to move around, but you can sometimes put it in just the right place.

-O

 

[DracoSuave]

A Staff is not a Quarterstaff.

Nowhere in any book does it say a Staff (implement) has to be wielded in both hands and its against all fantasy fiction to require the staff be held in both hands to cast spells.

Now it may be used as a Quarterstaff, but that isn't the same a being a Quarterstaff.

So you can not only use an Orb and a Staff, but you can dual wield Staves while having a Light Shield on one arm (since it lets you hold items) so you can have a Defensive Staff and your favorite offensive Staff while gaining +1 Reflex and AC.

Is that incerdibly silly looking? Yes, but that's not the point of this particular strawman.

All Quarterstaves have the staff trait. (Look on the weapon table. Weapon types can also be implement types, thanks to Swordmages.) All staff implments can be used as Quarterstaves.

Logically: All A are B. All B are A.

All Quarterstaves are staffs, all staffs are Quarterstaffs.

So, yes, you CAN do these tricks. You just can't use a staff implement to perform Weapon attacks without two hands.

 

[Drakhar]

All Quarterstaves have the staff trait. (Look on the weapon table. Weapon types can also be implement types, thanks to Swordmages.) All staff implments can be used as Quarterstaves.

Logically: All A are B. All B are A.

All Quarterstaves are staffs, all staffs are Quarterstaffs.

So, yes, you CAN do these tricks. You just can't use a staff implement to perform Weapon attacks without two hands.

But not all Quaterstaves are staffs. Any non wizard using a Quaterstaff only has a Quarterstaff. All those neat shiny implement powers for Staves? Can't be used.

Also from a purely reason stand point? Just because all A are B doesn't mean that all B are A.

 

[Mistwell]

Staff means that you'll (probably) negate one hit every combat.

I disagree. It's a +1 to AC all the time, and based on this build it's another +1 to all defenses once per encounter. That will sometimes come up, but it is not going to average nearly as often as every encounter. My wizard shouldn't be swung at very often, and when he is, the odds the +2 to AC will come into play are not anywhere close to 100%.

Orb means that you'll will (probably) stick a (save ends) effect to a normal opponent once a combat if you can hit them. (It is important to note that there are almost no save end encounter powers.)

At low levels I suspect extending my Illusory Ambush power to apply a -2 to an opponents attack for another round will come up more frequently than the save penalty.

But its actually a false choice: you can just take Second Implement in Paragon tier and use both Staff and Orb. So why not take the useful Staff to begin with and leave the mostly useless Orb until your Wisdom is high enough to have a significant effect?

I agree second implement is a good idea. And, I also agree with those who say you can use a staff in one hand as an implement (just not as a melee weapon).

However, I disagree that the orb is mostly useless at lower levels. My wisdom would be 16 to begin with, which is not bad. More importantly, I will probably be able to extend my illusory ambush for an additional round most encounters. Extending it an additional round is almost like getting a second attack off for that round, since -2 to all attacks is pretty good (it's like giving a +2 AC to allies fighting that creature).

 

[Mistwell]

I have a 5th level Human Orb-Wizard and while I like the Wizard itself, I'm quite disappointed with the Orb-Mastery.

The problem is that the save-penalty (wis 15 now Wis 16) is very seldom used at low levels since only daily powers have a save feature (you have only one or two of them), you must hit first, it only works against one enemy and most of the time the penalty is not enough to make a difference.

So far it didn't helped me once in my lvl5 career and I only stick to it because it fit's my character and I hope that it will get better later on when I have more Save Spells.

Have you gotten much use out of the duration extension power? Or did you not choose Cloud of Daggers, Ray of Frost, or Illusory Ambush as an at-will?

 

[Baumi]

Have you gotten much use out of the duration extension power? Or did you not choose Cloud of Daggers, Ray of Frost, or Illusory Ambush as an at-will?

No, but simply because I don't have them.

I started with Ray of Frost but the Slow Effect was seldom useful and so I traded it in for a Scorching Burst. Clouds of Dagger might be superior to my Magic Missile, but I am really happy with MM because I often got to use the increased range and I plan to get the bracers that increase the basic attacks. The last one that I have is Thunderwave and this is certainly the most useful at-will that I have. So I know that it is stupid that I didn't take on of your mentioned powers but I'm too happy about my current selection to swap any of these.

Anyway the extending duration feature should be quite good because I have an "Orb of Inevitable Continuance" that let me extend any power once per day and I used it to great effect with my Icy Rays (Immobilizing a strong melee monster out of range for two rounds rock!).

 

[DracoSuave]

But not all Quaterstaves are staffs. Any non wizard using a Quaterstaff only has a Quarterstaff. All those neat shiny implement powers for Staves? Can't be used.

Also from a purely reason stand point? Just because all A are B doesn't mean that all B are A.

All Quarterstaves are staffs.

Quarterstaff
Prof:+2
Damage: 1d8
Range: —
Cost: 5 gp
Wieght: 4 lb.
Group: Staff
Properties: —

The weapon entry is explicit about that.