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Define "grognard"

Your definition of “grognard” in the D&D culture


  • Total voters
    100

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Is this what you think this poll is? You brought up this idea twice.
I don't presume that I know your motives, Bullgrit. But then, I didn't stuff the ballot box, so it isn't me that's your problem :uhoh:

We've seen the pattern before: There's a long contentious thread on a subject ("Grognard good... grognard bad", in this case). People disagree in that thread. Someone then goes and makes a poll about it. Historically, it has not been uncommon for folks to take the poll to be, "Well, rather than argue, let's prove who is right about this!"

I recall a few complaints about this, even - folks suggesting that we disallow polls on recent contentious topics, on the basis that it is trying to find evidence and authority to "win" an argument.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if someone did think that is what your poll is.

Other people have suggested my polls have ulterior motives to make a point. I've even been accused of ordering the choices in a poll to get specific results.
I haven't examined your polls to see if there's any pattern to your ordering. If there is a pattern (like, the options you personally have leaned towards tend to come first), I would again not be surprised if someone did come to that conclusion.
 

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Maggan

Writer of The Bitter Reach
I haven't examined your polls to see if there's any pattern to your ordering. If there is a pattern (like, the options you personally have leaned towards tend to come first), I would again not be surprised if someone did come to that conclusion.
I would be overwhelmingly surprised of someone didn't come to that conclusion even if Bullgrit ordered the poll randomly, in public, under supervision of both WotC and Paizo.

He probably would be accused of using weighted dice, or paying off WotC and Paizo, or what have you.

That said, polls are fun but meaningless. I agree that they often seem to be set up to prove a point (regardless of poll creator), but they are a lot of fun never the less.

/M
 
Last edited:

Bullgrit

First Post
Umbran said:
We've seen the pattern before: There's a long contentious thread on a subject ("Grognard good... grognard bad", in this case). People disagree in that thread. Someone then goes and makes a poll about it. Historically, it has not been uncommon for folks to take the poll to be, "Well, rather than argue, let's prove who is right about this!"

I recall a few complaints about this, even - folks suggesting that we disallow polls on recent contentious topics, on the basis that it is trying to find evidence and authority to "win" an argument.
Yeah. It seems that discussing a subject, even arguing, to get a better understanding of the subject is such a rare thing on the Internet compared to debating a subject to win that most people can't believe someone doesn't have a point to prove with a poll.

On the Internet, people either fully agree and a forum thread becomes a mutual respect society, or they disagree and a forum thread becomes a debate ground where one side must *win*. That's rather pathetic. Discussion for insight and understanding is such an enigma that people will spend the whole discussion trying to figure out someone's ulterior motive.

A poll rarely can "prove a point," but they can give evidence for a point. Mostly, a poll can and usually does add more information/data to a discussion. And good polls can help people come to a better understanding of the subject.

Polls let people put their opinion/thought/experience into a discussion without having to write a full post. Most members of ENWorld don't regularly participate in discussions -- they just read them. A poll brings in more people without adding more text.

For instance, with this poll, before the ballot stuffer(s) started screwing it up:

It doesn't prove any definition of "grognard," but it does show what most people think/feel when they see the word used. If someone calls himself a "grognard" and means "war gamer," he can see from this poll that around only 1/5th of the people around here will understand that meaning.

Now, for someone who wants to win an argument about the definition of the word, seeing this poll result is a slap in the face, a challenge, an insult. Such a person can't accept the idea that though the "war gamer" meaning may be perfectly correct, it is not the most commonly understood. If one wants to communicate and be understood, one needs to take the common understanding at least in mind.

I've made polls in this forum before that gave results contrary to what I expected (what I believed, myself). The "Was AD&D1 designed for balance?" and "Is this fair?" polls come to mind. The poll results do not necessarily resolve the questions asked, absolutely, but they do give points of data and new angles on the information than if the threads were just long arguments among the half-dozen posters who felt strongly enough to stay and argue for pages.

Really, look at some of the most contentious threads around here. They are just 2-6 people going on and on for many pages.

Can polls be presented in a biased or useless way? Sure.
"Do you still beat your wife?"
Yes or No

But if a poll is presented honestly and neutrally, they can be very useful for understanding a subject. And even if the presenter has a strong opinion on the subject, he/she gets only one vote.

Actually, a non-poll post presents more bias -- someone comes and posts their meaning of "grognard" and presents it as an authoritative definition.

But, personally, I should just give up on coming to the Internet for discussion to understand. It's not only a confusing concept to most 'netizens, it's anathema.

Bullgrit
 

Diamond Cross

First Post
Sung to the tune of "Margaritaville" by Jimmy Buffet

They call me a grognard
I'm just a gamer
We each have our own unique style
I like the old games
You like the new games
When you're my age your new games'll be old

Wasting away again with the edition wars
Looking for my large shaker of dice
Some people claim that it's a long lonely game
But I know
It's my own damned style
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Actually, a non-poll post presents more bias -- someone comes and posts their meaning of "grognard" and presents it as an authoritative definition.

And some of us can. :D


But, personally, I should just give up on coming to the Internet for discussion to understand. It's not only a confusing concept to most 'netizens, it's anathema.

Bullgrit

Your screenname might be working against you on that score. ;)
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
It's funny to watch as some people identify as grognards who aren't quite grognards, and other people get labeled as grognards who also aren't grognards, and everyone scrambling to redefine so they can either label others or self-identify one way or another. Yet, the few I know who would fall under the original gamer-definition of "grognard" actually play all of the new games (and not just the market leader), as well as all of the old games, on a regular basis, and mostly don't identify themselves as grognards (though they might defend the original gamer-definition ;) ). I'd suggest people avoid the labeling and just play the games, as many as you can, for as long as you can, because the end of the big game comes all too soon.
 




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