Define "grognard"

[Diamond Cross]

you're being deliberately obtuse

It's uncool to use the term in a derogatory manner and is obtuse as well.

It is a disrespectful tone with the way it is used in the modern gamer usage.

So the true purpose to to find a way to be respectful.

Or to simply stop using it altogether. Because using the term only fosters edition wars and with edition wars comes the disrespect of other people who simply like different games.

Being gamers, we're still not very socially acceptable. In fact, at least in my area, when the word gamer is used it is also very disrespectful because in conjures up the image of the people in the Southpark episode that dealt with WoW.

So, we should understand what that's like and instead of embracing the idiocy of "being right is serious business" we should be more tolerant of each other who just like to play different games and in different styles.

And stop using stupid terms like grognard.

And this kind of thing works both ways.

 

[Desdichado]

It's uncool to use the term in a derogatory manner and is obtuse as well.

No, it isn't. You're just saying that because I used the word. There's nothing obtuse about my post.

Or to simply stop using it altogether. Because using the term only fosters edition wars and with edition wars comes the disrespect of other people who simply like different games.

:shrug: I don't mind edition wars. I'm more of a spectator than a participant, but grognardy behavior is one of the pillars of edition wars. It seems to me unbelievably naive to think that if we were to magically make everyone stop using the word grognard that edition wars would in any meaningful way change.

Plus, I don't know that I see that as a good thing anyway.

Being gamers, we're still not very socially acceptable. In fact, at least in my area, when the word gamer is used it is also very disrespectful because in conjures up the image of the people in the Southpark episode that dealt with WoW.

So, we should understand what that's like and instead of embracing the idiocy of "being right is serious business" we should be more tolerant of each other who just like to play different games and in different styles.

That's the geek social fallacy right there. Grognardy behavior, using the original grumpy, grumbling, complaining meaning of the word, is anti-social behavior. Why should anyone have to tolerate grumpy, grumbling anti-social behavior for The Cause™ or whatever? Gaming is a hobby. If people come to my game to rant about how the game has gone to the dogs in the last twenty or thirty years or whatever, they can go rant somewhere else. I don't have any obligation to be "understanding" or accepting of anti-social behavior. If I'm not having fun and enjoying the company of the people I game with, then why would I do it?

And stop using stupid terms like grognard.

It's a great term with lots of applicability and uses. I love it.

 

[IronWolf]

I chose options in the poll that tended towards long time D&D player that likely preferred some of the older editions. While grognard has strong implications of being grumpy and such, I see some room for someone that just talks about "back in my day we used to color our own dice" but still happily and willingly plays more current editions.

 

[baradtgnome]

Back in the day we happily colored our own dice....

... because that is all we had. Glad we don't have to do that crap anymore. (I still have my original crayon colored d20, though they have severely rounded edges and are only good for hauling out as museum pieces when someone calls me a grognard)

What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?

I lean toward the war gamer to D&D choice myself, since that is what we did.

 

[Bullgrit]

It seems that "grognard" is as difficult to define as "old school".

Maybe folks should keep this in mind when they use the term for themselves or for someone else.

About half the folks here think "grognard" means: Someone who prefers an old edition of D&D. So, if you have played D&D since OD&D, but currently prefer and play D&D4, and you call yourself a grognard 'round here, only about 1/3 of the readers recognize your meaning. Some people are going to think you hate D&D4.

If you are a war gamer, and call yourself a grognard, most folks here won't make the connection you mean.

Bullgrit

 

[UngainlyTitan]

It seems that "grognard" is as difficult to define as "old school".

Maybe folks should keep this in mind when they use the term for themselves or for someone else.

About half the folks here think "grognard" means: Someone who prefers an old edition of D&D. So, if you have played D&D since OD&D, but currently prefer and play D&D4, and you call yourself a grognard 'round here, only about 1/3 of the readers recognize your meaning. Some people are going to think you hate D&D4.

If you are a war gamer, and call yourself a grognard, most folks here won't make the connection you mean.

Bullgrit

This is why I voted for the Wargammer with or without D&D and prefer to preserve the Napoleonic connection. The other usages of the term are not very illuminating as to what is meant. Some use it to mean partisans of older editions that hate all that comes later and others use it to mean started with an older edition but without the necessity of hate to later editions.

In time a consensual meaning may emerge but at the moment in the context of D&D its a term that generates more heat than light.

 

[Mark CMG]

The poll forgot, "A wargamer pre-D&D (pre-1974)," though I suppose it might be stretched to include current wargamers. Personally, the more modern variety strike me as neo-grogs. Then, of course, there are the groglings, the children of wargamers who also wargame. Some believe that the earliest grognards who took up (O)D&D were devotees of the Temple of the Grog, an Arnesonian reference, I believe. Throughout the ages there have been those who falsely wished to claim the title of grognard despite not having the credentials, such as Mooser Rubinowitz of Springfield, MO, who started with 3.XE but always used a tape measure, ignoring the obvious squares on the battlemat, and rewrote the rules to include combat tables even though it would have been easier to do such math in his head. John Canto ate paint chips for years and then got a doctor to certify that he had lead poisoning in an effort to prove extensive old school miniatures usage. However, these pretenders were soon discovered and were asked to leave the assemblage, their grog-dues unrefunded. A neo-grog, Calvin N. Hobbesnail (rumored to be an alias), once petitioned for expanding the ranks of the order of grognards. A great row ensued after which it was realized that the neo-grog had disappeared during the din. Four years later his body was discovered on the shore of Lake Geneva and evidence showed he had been wrapped in a 6' x 10' piece of green felt and weighted down with inferior-quality microarmor. Sad. In any event, I'm afraid all attempts at redefinition will ultimately come to failure. Have a nice day (or a Fresca or Tab, your choice).


The Word "Grognard"

The Origin of the Wargaming Term "Grognard"

The Limits of your Vocabulary are the Limits of your World

Courtesy of Alan Emrich​

We frequently bandy about the term "grognard" among our fellow wargaming hobbiests. Often, online and in print publications, people have speculated about the origin of this label for veteran wargamers -- who coined this term that has been adopted as part of our hobby's lexicon, how did it get popular, and what is its root meaning? Allow me to present the real story, as told by the Dean of Board Wargaming himself, Jim Dunnigan:

"The term 'grognard,' as applied to veteran wargamers, was first coined back in the early 1970's by John Young. He was, at that time, an employee for [the board] wargame publisher SPI, and the use of the term around the office (and among the local play testers) soon led to 'grognards' being mentioned in one of SPI's magazines (Strategy & Tactics). Several hundred thousand board wargamers picked up the term from that publication and it spread to computer wargamers, as the the board wargamers (the ones with PCs, of course) were the first people to snap up computer wargames when they appeared.

"Consider this a first hand account, not an urban legend. I actually heard John Young utter it the first time and was one of the people who razzed him about it for some time thereafter. I was also the one who actually put the term into circulation in Strategy & Tactics [during my tenure there as Editor].

"Alas, John Young passed away in 1976 (or was it 77?). I can confirm that also; I was at the funeral. Now you know. . ." -- Jim Dunnigan

Grognard: a soldier of Napoleons' Old Guard; a veteran soldier; grumbler (French) - Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed

Grognard: (slang) an experienced wargamer - John Young, Strategy & Tactics magazine

 

[Squizzle]

The Limits of your Vocabulary are the Limits of your World

What the hell sort of Sapir-Whorf deterministic crap is this?

Edit:

In any event, I'm afraid all attempts at redefinition will ultimately come to failure.

Completely true. Language never changes. That's why you're reading this futhorc runes.fuþorcfuþorcfuþorcfutho

 

[Alzrius]

What's sad is that, from what I can tell, "grognard" is turning into another slang-insult for people who're unwilling/able to adapt to new aspects of gaming, and retreat into a microcosm of their antiquated game(s).

I say this mostly due to what I've seen on the grognard.txt sub-forum at SomethingAwful, which seems to exist solely for the posters there to mock anyone who exhibits a more-than-casual enjoyment of anything pre-4E.

 

[Diamond Cross]

What's sad is that, from what I can tell, "grognard" is turning into another slang-insult for people who're unwilling/able to adapt to new aspects of gaming, and retreat into a microcosm of their antiquated game(s).

If that's the game they like to play then that's the game they like to play. There should be no shame in liking a specific game, and that should go both ways.

But it's all to similar to the Trek fans at TOS who only like The Original Series and it must be that one or nothing.

I'm just too frustrated with it. People need to grow up and accept things change and some people don't like change and some will embrace it.