Red Spire Press
First Post
Double post.
Define "low-magic"
- Thread starter Jolly Giant
- Start date
Jolly Giant
First Post
Wow, loads of replies in just one night! Thanks for posting, everyone! 
I'm getting a much clearer picture of what is generally meant by low-magic now. Inever really saw what was so great about it before this thread. I kinda had the feeling a low-magic campaign was more or less the same as low-level campaign. Or a campaign were the DM bans any spell/magic item that could prove harmful to his plot (or even to his NPCs!)... :\
My own experience with "low-magic" campaigns has been limited to a DM who only let NPCs get the cool spells, never PCs. Sure, any BBEG could teleport away, but the party wizard could never get to learn teleport so we could follow him.
I'm glad to see there is a lot more to it than that. (For most people!
)
I'm getting a much clearer picture of what is generally meant by low-magic now. Inever really saw what was so great about it before this thread. I kinda had the feeling a low-magic campaign was more or less the same as low-level campaign. Or a campaign were the DM bans any spell/magic item that could prove harmful to his plot (or even to his NPCs!)... :\
My own experience with "low-magic" campaigns has been limited to a DM who only let NPCs get the cool spells, never PCs. Sure, any BBEG could teleport away, but the party wizard could never get to learn teleport so we could follow him.
I'm glad to see there is a lot more to it than that. (For most people!
)I run a "low magic" game from time to time, and find it very enjoyable. Here's my take on the subject:
1) I do like magic shops for a number of reasons, so I keep them, but they are organized by the church of the god of commerce, which has a number of sinister agendas going on. Mages never have much items in stock, so items must be commisioned.
2) Mages are few and far between. Most cities has a couple of mages, but they all have names and agendas. If the characters don't get along with the local mages, they have to solve magic problems on their own.
This makes pc mages more influential in the social setting, but this can be a good thing if used as a story hook.
Also, given that adventurers adventure, it is likely that the local mage is a villain, which is a bonus.
This also impacts the possibilites for magic shopping.
3) I tend to avoid "stock items". This means that swords often have names and histories. This means work, so items are generally more powerful but also more rare. NPC parties tend to be underequipped for this reason, so I prefer NPC classes to even things out.
4) I don't allow movement spells, so teleport, wind walk and fly are all gone. This has little effect on balance but has a huge impact to campaign dynamics. If you need to travel, you need a horse. Hit-and-run tactics are more difficult. High level play feels less like a marvel comic and more like something out of Conan.
I have no problem with evocation spells, but this is more a matter of taste. Necromancy and enchantment is more sinister, so I try to use them whenever I can when building evil npc plots.
Hope this helps.
1) I do like magic shops for a number of reasons, so I keep them, but they are organized by the church of the god of commerce, which has a number of sinister agendas going on. Mages never have much items in stock, so items must be commisioned.
2) Mages are few and far between. Most cities has a couple of mages, but they all have names and agendas. If the characters don't get along with the local mages, they have to solve magic problems on their own.
This makes pc mages more influential in the social setting, but this can be a good thing if used as a story hook.
Also, given that adventurers adventure, it is likely that the local mage is a villain, which is a bonus.
This also impacts the possibilites for magic shopping.
3) I tend to avoid "stock items". This means that swords often have names and histories. This means work, so items are generally more powerful but also more rare. NPC parties tend to be underequipped for this reason, so I prefer NPC classes to even things out.
4) I don't allow movement spells, so teleport, wind walk and fly are all gone. This has little effect on balance but has a huge impact to campaign dynamics. If you need to travel, you need a horse. Hit-and-run tactics are more difficult. High level play feels less like a marvel comic and more like something out of Conan.
I have no problem with evocation spells, but this is more a matter of taste. Necromancy and enchantment is more sinister, so I try to use them whenever I can when building evil npc plots.
Hope this helps.
WizarDru
Adventurer
Jolly Giant said:
Low-magic, as stated, means different things to different people. Some people consider LotR to be low-magic, for example, even though magic is virtually omnipresent in Middle Earth. A common thread in LotR is that the Elves don't view anything as 'magical', but the things they make are so well-crafted (and sometimes imbued with the divine) that to non-elves, that's exactly what they are (witness: lembas bread, elf-cloaks, the phial of galadriel, elven rope, elven healing techniques, elven weapons, moon-doors and so on and so forth). Middle-Earth has magical beings at every turn and powerful divinities whose power has reshaped the world several times...but on a practical, day-to-day level, magic is rarely seen and it's effects rarely felt. Magic that finds it's hands even to adventurers (non-elves, in particular) is rare. Most of Middle-Earth's magic falls into item creation or divine powers.
Other folks look at something like Conan as 'low-magic'. Here, sorcerors, wizards, witches, demons, devis and magic items abound...but their relative power is weak, comparatively speaking. Of course, their invulnerability depends on the plot...wizard X returns from the dead, and can only be slain if Conan retrieves an ancient gem and reclaims his throne, for example. There are few massive displays of power, making the few there are more effective and powerful by contrast. If there are dozens of wizards, but only two of them know burning hands, and no one has access to appropriate magical defenses, then it becomes a more powerful spell by default.
I've heard Midnight referred to as low-magic, which also is up to interpetation. In a world where only the bad guys have clerics, magic hunting awakened animals roam the streets of cities ruled by epic-level PCs turned to evil and an ancient elven kingdom full of powerful elven magic-users is the only thing left standing...well, magic is hardly low in quantity. It is, however, rare for the PCs to get it and be able to make effective use of it.
Generally, what most folks mean by low-magic in a game falls into two broad categories:
- There is little magic, period: Obviously, this style can penalize PCs a great deal in the D&D system. Some creatures became far, far more dangerous without the appropriate magical defenses: a Bodak, for example, becomes a terrifying thing, and some creatures, such as evil outsiders, become far tougher opponents. Care needs to be taken to address such issues, or pick challenges appropriately. The CR system assumes that PCs have access to standard magic and an equivalent GPs worth of magic items as given in the equipment chart in the DMG. If the PCs are woefully under-equipped on that scale, then their ability to handle CRs varies dramatically. If done wrong, this style can severely penalize spellcasters as a PC choice unfairly.
- There is little magic in the PCs hands: In this style, PCs see plenty of magic flying about, but are severely limited in their access to it. Depending on how this is handled, it can be very frustrating or merely flavor. Care needs to be taken to recognized that either the PCs need to find a way to get the necessary equipment for higher-levels.
I think there are a lot of dimensions to "high magic" vs. "low magic", probably enough that the term "low magic" is almost meaningless, though in D&D it tends to mean "magic items are much less common than the wealth guidelines in the DMG would suggest".
How powerful are the most powerful spellcasters? Is teleportation or throwing fireballs routine, taxing for all but the greatest wizards, or nearly impossible?
How powerful is the average spellcaster? Can two average guys handle one master? Can ten?
How common are spellcasters (and those with other obviously supernatural abilities)? Does every village have a hedge wizard, are true spellcasters extraordinarily rare, with only a handful in a given kingdom?
How common are magic items? Can a mid-level crime lord buy a cheap enchanted dagger, or is even a +1 sword an extremely rare thing?
How powerful are magic items? Can items be crafted that are equal to any spells, not as good as spells, or better than any spells?
Etc...
How powerful are the most powerful spellcasters? Is teleportation or throwing fireballs routine, taxing for all but the greatest wizards, or nearly impossible?
How powerful is the average spellcaster? Can two average guys handle one master? Can ten?
How common are spellcasters (and those with other obviously supernatural abilities)? Does every village have a hedge wizard, are true spellcasters extraordinarily rare, with only a handful in a given kingdom?
How common are magic items? Can a mid-level crime lord buy a cheap enchanted dagger, or is even a +1 sword an extremely rare thing?
How powerful are magic items? Can items be crafted that are equal to any spells, not as good as spells, or better than any spells?
Etc...
VirgilCaine
First Post
S'mon said:
That IS scary. Because you can't just cast dispel magic to get rid of a hypnotic suggestion.
Estlor
Explorer
If you want to make a flavorful low-magic campaign, there are a few things (I think) you need to do.
1) Nerf the spellcasters. Here's the thing - if you leave wizards, clerics, druids, and sorcerers as written, you can't have a low magic setting. Even if you take out a bunch of spells, the fact that these classes still exist means there is a representative sample of the population in those classes, using their abilities. I would suggesting making two classes to replace them, the Arcanist (arcane half-caster) and the Mystic (divine half-caster). The arcanist is basically a bard with a focus more on knowledge and less on music. You might want to look into the spellcasting advanced classes from D20 Modern for a framework. Use the bard's spell list as a foundation - give the mostly illusions, divinations, and charms. Use the ranger's spell progression (because it's delayed). Do something similar for the Mystic, but use a watered down version of the cleric's list with mostly conjuration (healing) and abjuration spells. Depending on whether you want undead to be more powerful and threatening in your campaign, consider carefully giving the Mystic turn undead.
2) Nerf the magic items. Throw out most of the major items and make it so a +1 sword is a great find, a +2 sword is a major treasure, and a sword with a special quality is the thing of legends.
3) Adjust CR big time. Because the party has little access to magical healing and evocation spells, certain things change. Monsters with damage reduction magic will be major challenges. If the divine spellcasting class cannot turn undead, undead become a serious threat, often having favorable damage reduction coupled with this. Most common villains will be humanoids or animals, with magical beasts as strong opponents and outsiders and dragons as nearly impossible creatures.
A side effect of doing this is you retard the power creep in a game. Proper allocation of skill points becomes huge, and combat feats can often make or break a party. Expect to see a heavier focus on the Healing and Profession (Herbalist) skill as well as inventive uses of Alchemy to replace common spells.
1) Nerf the spellcasters. Here's the thing - if you leave wizards, clerics, druids, and sorcerers as written, you can't have a low magic setting. Even if you take out a bunch of spells, the fact that these classes still exist means there is a representative sample of the population in those classes, using their abilities. I would suggesting making two classes to replace them, the Arcanist (arcane half-caster) and the Mystic (divine half-caster). The arcanist is basically a bard with a focus more on knowledge and less on music. You might want to look into the spellcasting advanced classes from D20 Modern for a framework. Use the bard's spell list as a foundation - give the mostly illusions, divinations, and charms. Use the ranger's spell progression (because it's delayed). Do something similar for the Mystic, but use a watered down version of the cleric's list with mostly conjuration (healing) and abjuration spells. Depending on whether you want undead to be more powerful and threatening in your campaign, consider carefully giving the Mystic turn undead.
2) Nerf the magic items. Throw out most of the major items and make it so a +1 sword is a great find, a +2 sword is a major treasure, and a sword with a special quality is the thing of legends.
3) Adjust CR big time. Because the party has little access to magical healing and evocation spells, certain things change. Monsters with damage reduction magic will be major challenges. If the divine spellcasting class cannot turn undead, undead become a serious threat, often having favorable damage reduction coupled with this. Most common villains will be humanoids or animals, with magical beasts as strong opponents and outsiders and dragons as nearly impossible creatures.
A side effect of doing this is you retard the power creep in a game. Proper allocation of skill points becomes huge, and combat feats can often make or break a party. Expect to see a heavier focus on the Healing and Profession (Herbalist) skill as well as inventive uses of Alchemy to replace common spells.
shilsen
Adventurer
You're right - I don't agree with that definitiondie_kluge said:
Low-magic and realism have nothing necessarily in common. I heard about this low-magic campaign world once, where the entire universe consisted of these really big rocks floating in the air, with even bigger balls of flaming gas just hanging in mid-air, and the like. And People lived on those rocks and could even walk on the bottom and not fall off! And they were supposedly descended from monkeys. And everything was made up of these tiny things which couldn't even be seen. Realism, forsooth!
Rodrigo Istalindir
Explorer
Estlor said:
Why? I have no problem using standard PHB magic-using classes in low-magic settings. The wizard can be one of a select few that have stumbled upon forgotten techniques. The cleric can be chosen by his god to do great things, and the rest of the (non-spellcasting) clergy is in awe of his gift. I generally assume in my campaigns that the adventurers are rare individuals indeed.
Agreed, for the most part. I tend to pepper my low-magic settings with more charged items, and limited-use items, too. This lets you provide the party with an edge in tailored encounters (eg, a couple 'protection from elements' potions a couple sessions prior to an encounter with a frost dragon) without worrying about it elevating the overall power level.
I'd throw out CRs entirely in low-magic settings. If you are a relatively experienced DM, you know how to tailor your encounters, and if you are new to DMing, you probably shouldn't try to heavily alter the game yet. Or, pick up one of the pre-defined low-magic books like Midnight. Actually, pick up Midnight anyway.
