D&D General Defining "New School" Play (+)

I dont know if its strongly NS, but I do very much like background, trait, class features that tie to setting and particularly campaigns. I am the absolute biggest stan for prestige classes and campaign players guides. I know some homebrewers have a disdain for flavored mechanics, but I like to link my PCs as much as possible the source material.
I would say it's part of it. You saw a very early blush of this in late-3e, where characters could take just one feat of a certain category (Background, was it? Or Origin? Something like that.) 4e is where it came into its full flower, with both Background and Theme giving significant mechanics to these ideas.

Frankly, overall I'm pretty disappointed with 5e's backgrounds. Perhaps 5.5e will help address this, what with the first-level feat thing, but in general I've found most 5e backgrounds barely more than a blip on the radar in terms of actually telling a story about one's character. It's a lot of text, but not a lot of effect.
 

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I would say it's part of it. You saw a very early blush of this in late-3e, where characters could take just one feat of a certain category (Background, was it? Or Origin? Something like that.) 4e is where it came into its full flower, with both Background and Theme giving significant mechanics to these ideas.

Frankly, overall I'm pretty disappointed with 5e's backgrounds. Perhaps 5.5e will help address this, what with the first-level feat thing, but in general I've found most 5e backgrounds barely more than a blip on the radar in terms of actually telling a story about one's character. It's a lot of text, but not a lot of effect.
I really liked where PF1 took things. Traits, campaign feats, prestige classes, archetypes you could really create some fun and flavorful characters.

5E backgrounds just feel tacked on and underused. Probably a result of the rather lackluster skill system.
 

I've been playing since the mid 80s, and until his recent death the group I GM included someone who played with Gygax. It still includes a couple of people who started in the 70s. The sort of thing that some folks here ascribe to "old school" does not fit with the games I played back in the day. Nor does it fit with the way the people who were gaming before me describe their experiences. What it reminds me of is actually some of the anecdotes in John Wick's Play Dirty, which includes tales of him perpetrating various cruelties on his players as part of an overtly adversarial stance toward them. I will gladly say that I think that treating your players abusively is bad GMing and some of what's been passed off as "old school" in this thread borders on abusive behavior. It also reminds me of the old Knights of the Dinner Table comic strip, but presented as if that was how people really behave at the table rather than as satire and comedy.

I have no doubt that there were, and still are, GMs and players whose games look like that. They're not good examples of "old school" play. This is because 1) I think they're non-representative and 2) as others have pointed out, "old school" play today is actually a modern playstyle that attempts to reconstruct elements of the game that fell out of favor. It puts me in mind of historical European martial arts, which is largely an attempt to recreate medieval and Renaissance fighting styles and techniques based on surviving manuals and other primary and secondary sources. This isn't a bad thing, either in RPGs or in martial arts, but it is important to recognize that reconstructions of a thing are not the same as the original.
 

I have no doubt that there were, and still are, GMs and players whose games look like that. They're not good examples of "old school" play. This is because 1) I think they're non-representative and 2) as others have pointed out, "old school" play today is actually a modern playstyle that attempts to reconstruct elements of the game that fell out of favor. It puts me in mind of historical European martial arts, which is largely an attempt to recreate medieval and Renaissance fighting styles and techniques based on surviving manuals and other primary and secondary sources. This isn't a bad thing, either in RPGs or in martial arts, but it is important to recognize that reconstructions of a thing are not the same as the original.

To be fair, the one difference is that some of the people doing this were actually around then. At most they're trying to recreate the games they had back then--or extend ones that have gone on on and off across the decades. So I don't think its quite as reconstructionist as you suggest in some cases.

I think they're very possibly duplicating, rather than reconstructing the experience they had many years ago (or more recently).

As I've said, the problem usually has more to do with people overgeneralizing, or outright universalizing an experience that certainly existed, but people have suggested was more common than there's any reason to believe it actually was.
 

To be fair, the one difference is that some of the people doing this were actually around then. At most they're trying to recreate the games they had back then--or extend ones that have gone on on and off across the decades. So I don't think its quite as reconstructionist as you suggest in some cases.

I think they're very possibly duplicating, rather than reconstructing the experience they had many years ago (or more recently).

As I've said, the problem usually has more to do with people overgeneralizing, or outright universalizing an experience that certainly existed, but people have suggested was more common than there's any reason to believe it actually was.
This is correct, and I didn't mean to imply that everyone engaged in "old school" play is reconstructing past modes of play. There are definitely groups and individuals that have maintained some level of continuity. What I would say, though, is that the OSR and things like it are attempts at reconstruction. This is pretty clear from the writing of people within the OSR talking about it (see, for instance, this collection). That's not a bad thing! But we can see how a game like OSRIC differs from an actual game that has been running for 40+ years, because we have examples of the latter.

There's Robert Wardhaugh, who's had a continuous campaign since 1982. His site is interesting, in particular the section on his house rules. He doesn't detail all of them, but among the rules mentioned are 1) spells are per-level, not per-day, implemented to disempower casters, 2) there is a "stance" system, where whenever you're hit you have to make a roll or fall down, 3) characters go up to ~40th level, 4) hit points and damage are doubled, 5) XP is per session and not tied to character actions, and 6) a reworked system for armor with ascending AC and armor-as-damage-reduction.

I'm not interested in whether or not they're quote-unquote "good" rules; they work for him and his players, and whether or not I would want to play in a game using them is irrelevant. What I find interesting here is the way the "old school" movement emphasizes "rulings, not rules"—Matthew Finch's "A Quick Primer for Old School Gaming" is, I think, the source of that phrase, and it ends with a reminder to the GM that "You are the rulebook. There is no other rulebook." But if we look at Wardhaugh's game, from his description it seems to be full of rules. They're house rules, to be sure, but house rules are still rules. He's changed and hacked the rules of AD&D into their own thing, to satisfy his desires and those of his players, to meet demands for verisimilitude, and—importantly—for play balance. Long-running games like Wardhaugh's tend to accumulate rules as GMs and players adapt and convert stuff from other systems and settings, whereas games attempting to evoke "old school" play tend to strip things down.
 

Long-running games like Wardhaugh's tend to accumulate rules as GMs and players adapt and convert stuff from other systems and settings, whereas games attempting to evoke "old school" play tend to strip things down.
This is exactly my experience. My campaign has similarly been running uninterrupted since 1982 and my houserules are an unholy mix of stuff from every edition of the game, plus Pathfinder, plus various other things I came up with. I do also run arcs with stripped-down rules but the main game uses a wholly baroque agglomeration of rules :)
 

This is exactly my experience. My campaign has similarly been running uninterrupted since 1982 and my houserules are an unholy mix of stuff from every edition of the game, plus Pathfinder, plus various other things I came up with. I do also run arcs with stripped-down rules but the main game uses a wholly baroque agglomeration of rules :)
I'm not sure if im more upset that agglomeration is a real word or that I had to look it up. :rolleyes:
 


Are you kidding? Agglomeration is a great word! It has the virtue of both looking and sounding like what it means. It's almost poetic. ;)
I know amalgamation, conglomeration, aggregate and amelioration.
You have done gone and learned me a new confabulation sir or madam. 🤯
 
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This is correct, and I didn't mean to imply that everyone engaged in "old school" play is reconstructing past modes of play. There are definitely groups and individuals that have maintained some level of continuity. What I would say, though, is that the OSR and things like it are attempts at reconstruction. This is pretty clear from the writing of people within the OSR talking about it (see, for instance, this collection). That's not a bad thing! But we can see how a game like OSRIC differs from an actual game that has been running for 40+ years, because we have examples of the latter.

I think it gets muddy because the OSR is sometimes treated to include retroclones (which clearly land in the duplication category) and other more divergent rules sets. Probably your point would be more clearcut if that wasn't the case.

There's Robert Wardhaugh, who's had a continuous campaign since 1982. His site is interesting, in particular the section on his house rules. He doesn't detail all of them, but among the rules mentioned are 1) spells are per-level, not per-day, implemented to disempower casters, 2) there is a "stance" system, where whenever you're hit you have to make a roll or fall down, 3) characters go up to ~40th level, 4) hit points and damage are doubled, 5) XP is per session and not tied to character actions, and 6) a reworked system for armor with ascending AC and armor-as-damage-reduction.

If he's using traditional old-school advancement that spell rule is painful. The experience system sounds like something I've used in a lot of game systems where I wanted a more modulated result (and less arbitrary than some) from milestone levelling.

I'm not interested in whether or not they're quote-unquote "good" rules; they work for him and his players, and whether or not I would want to play in a game using them is irrelevant. What I find interesting here is the way the "old school" movement emphasizes "rulings, not rules"—Matthew Finch's "A Quick Primer for Old School Gaming" is, I think, the source of that phrase, and it ends with a reminder to the GM that "You are the rulebook. There is no other rulebook." But if we look at Wardhaugh's game, from his description it seems to be full of rules.

As someone who was around at that time, its not hard to see in a lot of people writing house rules was (in some cases literally) a cottage industry. A lot of people came in from wargaming after all; and while their may have been people who were used to heavy referee adjucation games, far more were used to knowing the ruddy rules.

They're house rules, to be sure, but house rules are still rules. He's changed and hacked the rules of AD&D into their own thing, to satisfy his desires and those of his players, to meet demands for verisimilitude, and—importantly—for play balance. Long-running games like Wardhaugh's tend to accumulate rules as GMs and players adapt and convert stuff from other systems and settings, whereas games attempting to evoke "old school" play tend to strip things down.

Things like Arduin and the like didn't exist for no reason. Even among people who didn't want to be bound to rulebooks (which seems to be the motivation of some OSR proponents given the hostility they phrase some things with) they didn't necessarily want to have to keep making ad-hoc decisions with things that came up frequently. Only reason I didn't have a bushel of OD&D house rules (and you can argue I did have some, they were just combinations of misunderstandings, having been taught things that were not actually in the books, and sort of ad-hoc-not-written-down things I still used consistently) was that by the time the formal urge to do such things kicked in I'd left D&D behind.
 

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