Deflect Arrows

[Lord Pendragon]

This unbelievability (key part: 1st level character) is why it is unbalancing in our eyes.

You seem to be unwilling to acknowledge that unbelievability and unbalanced are two different things. Just because something is unbelievable does not make it unbalanced. The Whirlwind Attack feat allows a single 2nd-level fighter to attack 17 opponents in 6 seconds. Is this somewhat unbelievable? Sure. But it's not unbalanced. You keep asserting that Deflect Arrows is unbalanced because it's unbelievable, and my stance, again, is that it may be unbelievable to you, but that doesn't make it unbalanced, i.e. more powerful than other options available at that level.

You are arguing with yourself, unless someone else has challenged this here and I missed it.

Hrm. Let's look back at the conversation, shall we?

I simply stated that it seams unbalancing for a 1st level character to be able to accomplish what I have shown the RAW supports. An opposed roll of some sort makes it level-dependent, that's all.

You're comparing one character who's chosen to invest in a feat to defeat 1 ranged attack each round, against another character who has chosen not to invest in a feat to gain one extra ranged attack per round. You don't see how this comparison is skewed?

No I don't, because the scenario above shows the inequality of the two feats you mention.

How? How does the scenario show any inequality at all between the two feats I mention? They are exactly equal. Both feats are available at level 1. One feat adds one ranged attack per round, one feat subtracts one ranged attack per round. Where is the inequality?

There are Feats a 1st level character can take that are much more powerful than others...

Yes, nobody is arguing against this point. I'm arguing that Deflect Arrows is not more powerful than Rapid Shot.

You are arguing with yourself, unless someone else has challenged this here and I missed it.

You've missed it in your own posts?

Not ignoring, just not seeing the relevance of your responses to the issue at hand. For instance, the response below...

You took the 1st level character with Deflect Arrows right out of the heart of my argument, making this scenario irrelevant to the discussion.

It was a scenario designed to illustrate a point. For goodness' sake, not every scenario I use to illustrate my point needs to have a 1st level character with Deflect Arrows in it to be relevant to what I'm trying to say!

So I guess I didn't get my objection to Deflect Arrows entirely based on just my personal believability threshold.

No, the presence of others who dislike Deflect Arrows means nothing of the sort. It merely means that their personal believability thresholds have been breached as well.

Again, totally irrelevant. Or do you think the hero of that movie, a virtual master of the martial arts, would equate to a 1st level monk?

Leroy was a young man with years of training and no practical experience. That's the definition of a 1st-level character. Although in the case of Leroy, he must have been at least 2nd, since he could deflect arrows!

 

[mrtauntaun]

Magic Missile at best can be performed a few times a day for a first level character; and it's magic.

While it may only be able to be used a few times per day, that makes it no less believable. The fact that it's magic is irrelevant. Both a magic spell and a feat require research and training (effectively; in game). Both characters in question for this example have a specialized skill only they can do, and a magic spell is just as unbelievable to the monk as the deflecting of arrows is to the wizard. The game is full of things like this, believability is not a factor in this, IMO. I don't play D&D for believability, 80% of D&D is unbelievable
As for balance, it is certainly balanced, as per the evidence cited by others in this thread, so I will not rehash it here.

 

[atom crash]

Let's keep in mind that a 1st level fighter with deflect arrows has invested both his feats (that's all his feats if he's not a human) into being able to nullify one ranged attack per round. With that kind of focus, he won't be much good at anything else. Like say power attacking or cleaving or dodging.

I see nothing unbalanced about a feat that automatically nullifies one ranged attack roll per round. To require an opposed roll, a saving throw or use of an attack of opportunity would completely gut the feat and make it worthless. You'd be better off choosing dodge (or an armor proficiency feat for non-fighters) to boost your AC.

What's puzzling to me is that the magical shield quality (arrow defelction) still requires a DC 20 Reflex save. IMC, I treat it as if the character has the feat.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Where were you showing a scenario with a level 1 guy? I missed it.

That is because I didn't. I was responding to your comment:

Flying foes and magic resistance foes are beyond most 1st level encounters.

To which I responded that so is the scenario in which you pin a 1st level guy against 3 orcs and a 20th level enemy. That too is beyond most 1st level encounters.

You can come up with a million and one contrived scenarios on how to show how a feat is either too good or too bad. But the only real way to validate if a feat is broken is to apply it to typical situations/encounters that will regularly come up in your average run of the mill campaign session. And again, a 1st level Monk w/ Deflect Arrows going against 3 orcs and a 20th level figher/archer that can only fire 1 arrow is not what I would call a "regular encounter" in a "run of the mill campaign". Of course, YMMV.

I would like to see what your thoughts on the Epic Deflect Arrows are...

 

[Artoomis]

...I would like to see what your thoughts on the Epic Deflect Arrows are...

Oooh.. I love the EPIC stuff. Very cool.

The epic feats are (italized only for readability):

Exceptional Deflection [Epic]
Prerequisites
Dex 21, Wis 19, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Benefit
You can deflect any ranged attacks (including spells that require ranged touch attacks) as if they were arrows.

Infinite Deflection [Epic]
Prerequisites
Dex 25, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Benefit
You may perform any number of deflections each round, as the Deflect Arrows feat.

Reflect Arrows [Epic]
Prerequisites
Dex 25, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Benefit
When you deflect an arrow or other ranged attack, the attack is reflected back upon the attacker at your base ranged attack bonus.

By the time you are done you can reflect any ranged attack back to the shooter/caster. Cool.

Not only that, if you plan ahead you can do this with you first three feats after 20th level - that's level 25 for a monk (one at 21, one at 24, one bonus feat at 25th level).

Dex of 25 is not that hard to get if you really focus on it - you can be at 22 (or 24 if an elf) without any wishes, etc. at 20th level. Wisdom 19 is also not too hard, if you focus on Dex and Wisdom.

Very cool for a monk. Stay out of close combat with your speed and reflect back all ranged attacks of any sort. Very monk-like. Very epic.

All they need in addition to this is some way to avoid the no save spells. Especially those that also have no SR applicable.

I've wanted to play a character like this to see how it would really work in practice, but I've yet to play a 25th level character. By the time we get that high, we always seem to find some reason why we want to start over at 1st level.

 

[RigaMortus2]

So what if we have 2 Epic level characters, one a Monk with all the Epic Deflection feats and the other an Archer who also happens to have all the Epic Deflection feats?

Archer fires an arrow, Monk reflects it back, Archer reflects it back, and so on.

 

[Artoomis]

So what if we have 2 Epic level characters, one a Monk with all the Epic Deflection feats and the other an Archer who also happens to have all the Epic Deflection feats?

Archer fires an arrow, Monk reflects it back, Archer reflects it back, and so on.

It looks to me like the arrow never, ever hits the ground- well, at least until someone stops paying attention - exhaustion will kick in eventually.

I'd handle it by saying the arrow (or whatever) simply falls to the ground or fizzles (if a spell), spent.

Edit: You only deflect something that would have hit and it goes back at your BAB, so eventually someone will miss. The easiest thing to do is simply say the arrow or spell fizzles out, becasue that is what will happen anay if you really want to make all the attack rolls until it's a miss.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

1. Does the archer have a free hand?

2. This is similar to the case of the two characters with Perfect Combat Reflexes (or whatever it's called) who lock themselves into an AoO loop as they attempt to make non-Improved Disarm attempts.

Someone posited that it would make an interesting backstory for an Armageddon myth - the warriors Koltho and Nauwak, locked in eternal battle, and the death of time shall come when one triumphs (etc.).

 

[AuraSeer]

So what if we have 2 Epic level characters, one a Monk with all the Epic Deflection feats and the other an Archer who also happens to have all the Epic Deflection feats?

Archer fires an arrow, Monk reflects it back, Archer reflects it back, and so on.

A reflected arrow attacks the firer "at your base ranged attack bonus." Eventually one of the reflectors will miss his attack roll, and the arrow will fly off someplace harmless.

 

[Hypersmurf]

2. This is similar to the case of the two characters with Perfect Combat Reflexes (or whatever it's called) who lock themselves into an AoO loop as they attempt to make non-Improved Disarm attempts.

Someone posited that it would make an interesting backstory for an Armageddon myth - the warriors Koltho and Nauwak, locked in eternal battle, and the death of time shall come when one triumphs (etc.).

An eternal battle that all fits into the span of six seconds?

-Hyp.