Deities and Demigods ~ Thank You God!

[Psion]

Well, I'd say its about time they did something just for old schoolers...

1. "Demon" and "devil" are still entirely inseparable from the "tanar'ri" and "baatezu" names, and the Blood War, unfortunately, is still canon.

Gee, what they did there was make it so both terms where entirely valid. I thought that was rather clever of them.

2. Despite the ceaseless grumbling of Planescape fans, the Great Wheel detailed in the MotP is much closer to that setting than the original MotP. Sigil is referenced and the Lady of Pain is still around.

Oh, Sigil was mentioned. A paragraph or two destroyed the book for you. You'll understand if I don't feel sorry for you.

Most of the Planescape titles for planes are still retained, such as Celestia, Bytopia, Ysgard, etc.

AND by their original names... The Seven Heavens of Mt. Celestia, etc.

"Yugoloth", rather than "daemon" (as it should have been), was used.

They had a good reason for that: to dispel confusion.

For once, why can't you "new schoolers" cut us old timers some slack!? We have to endure your crap, so put up with ours a bit.

I don't know about other old timers (I have been playing since OD&D, BTW), but I can tell you why I think they don't owe anything to you: They have striven to compromise in multiple ways, yet you remain unsatisfied that anything has been done for your benefit. You don't want a compromise. You want it your way, period.

 

[Psion]

I'm sorry. I just don't see the point. Stats for Gods.
Ok, they're _gods_, folks.

So? In some myth and legend, god were confrontable and defeasible. Further, some players may not be comfortable with the "almost-but-not-quite=omnipotence" model that prevails in D&D. I know I'm not.

That said, I do have serious doubts about the utility of DDG. I mean even if you do allow gods to be confronted, it seems to me an epic thing that is not going to happen that often. It seems to me the energy would have been a lot better spent focusing on priesthoods and servants of the deities that are more likely to enter play.

 

[hong]

Wow, and here I was actually thinking about using the D&Dmg book to bestow some powers upon the players in my game... There are uses for stats for gods. For instance, what if I run a game where all the characters are gods? If the gods don't have stats, I suppose that would make character creation real easy, huh?

The Epic Level Handbook would seem to be the best way to accomodate this sort of campaign. Just set the power level to whatever awe-inspiring setting you wish, and away you go. At that level, the distinction between "gods" and "mortals" kinda gets blurry in terms of raw power -- from the point of view of the commoner-in-the-street, one guy with the ability to level mountains is the same as another. All the paraphernalia of being gods -- having worshippers, spheres of influence, etc -- can be handwaved via roleplay.

 

[Florin]

The Epic Level Handbook would seem to be the best way to accomodate this sort of campaign. Just set the power level to whatever awe-inspiring setting you wish, and away you go. At that level, the distinction between "gods" and "mortals" kinda gets blurry in terms of raw power -- from the point of view of the commoner-in-the-street, one guy with the ability to level mountains is the same as another. All the paraphernalia of being gods -- having worshippers, spheres of influence, etc -- can be handwaved via roleplay.

Ah, but I am going to take a page from U_K's book and make the worshippers, spheres of influence, etc. the whole point of the struggle. I want to make the characters actual gods, not god-like, with all the benefits and responsiblities that come along with it.

 

[Nightfall]

Which is probably why you should get around to looking at Quint Book of Cleric Psion. I think this book sounds, from the preview, what people WANT about generic worship and things of that nature.

 

[Information]

I don't know about other old timers (I have been playing since OD&D, BTW), but I can tell you why I think they don't owe anything to you: They have striven to compromise in multiple ways, yet you remain unsatisfied that anything has been done for your benefit. You don't want a compromise. You want it your way, period.

How right you are!

Seriously, though. I thought that with the Planescape-heavy nature of the MotP, you guys would back off from complaining about deities having stats.

And as for the endless whining of old schoolers...Where? When? Perhaps I was on vacation? In my personal experience, I've seen a ratio of new school-old school complaints at a ratio of about 10-1, respectively, on official and unofficial message boards.

As for "daemon" being confusing for some people...I find it difficult enough to explain to people the difference between "demon" and "devil", terms that are used interchangeably in a number of 3rd Ed. supplements (Encylopedia of Demons and Devils, Demonology, et al), thereby blurring the distinction new schoolers never cared to make...

In truth, however, I had hoped that the MotP would not include such overtly Planescape concepts as the Blood War (the inclusion of which actually ruined my desire to run a cosmology strictly based on official rules). Finally, we get a book that displays nothing but reverence for 1st Edition material, and you guys are griping once again.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Firstly thanks to The Serge and Ancalagon for their reviews!

Hi Flexor mate!

Nerull should have been DR19...he was the heaviest hitter in the 1e pathenon, the only 400 HP good.

He had the most hit points but was relatively 'level-lite'. That, coupled with the different structure of the Greyhawk Pantheon, no single Pantheon head by all accounts, and I don't think Divine Rank 19 is appropriate for any Greyhawk specific deities.

Divine Rank 18 would have suited Nerull; Boccob; Beory; Pelor and Istus though.

 

[Psion]

Which is probably why you should get around to looking at Quint Book of Cleric Psion.

Would it surprise you if I said I have it?

And I was hoping that it would do some of that sort of thing. It has some, but too little. Much like DotF, it focuses on roles of Clerics without concering itself with how strongly the nature of the Clreic's faith would impact that. TQC is one "Q" book that could have afforded to be lots more like its 2e predescessor.

Of course, review forthcoming.

 

[hong]

Ah, but I am going to take a page from U_K's book and make the worshippers, spheres of influence, etc. the whole point of the struggle. I want to make the characters actual gods, not god-like, with all the benefits and responsiblities that come along with it.

In which case you're probably going to be out of luck, because D&Dg, from what I've heard, doesn't have any rules for tying worship to the power of a god. This sort of thing is highly campaign-specific, and what seems logical and reasonable to one person may be completely silly to another. In fact, I'm not aware of any cosmology, other than FR, where a deity's power is directly tied to how many worshippers he/she/it has.

Also, in many cosmologies, apotheosis and transcendence are quite distinct from being the object of worship.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Curtis!

I'm sorry. I just don't see the point. Stats for Gods.
Ok, they're _gods_, folks. Call me a stick-in-the-mud 2nd edition gamer. Giving stats to gods is just dumb, IMHO.

You're a stick-in-the-mud 2nd edition gamer!

I can't possibly think of any reason why I'd ever need this book.

All products beyond the core rulebooks are niche products!

I've already got the Legends and Lore from 2E,

Never been so disappointed with any book in my life as with the dreadful 2nd Ed. Legends & Lore.

the Planescape "On Hallowed Ground" book - which is just EXCELLENT, BTW,

Don't have it, perhaps I will have a look on ebay. What was so good about it!?

and the FR 2E "Faiths and Avatars" which is also one of my all-time favorite books.

I agree! A fantastic book!

The last is a bit harder to port to 3E, but the concepts are amazing, especially if you game in FR (I don't), but still. An awesome book in its own right.

I think Faiths and Pantheons (almost upon us) could be a worthy update - if not successor.