Demon Lords and Demigods

[BLACKDIRGE]

Awhile back there was a thread that contained a heated debate over the demon lords and archdevils presented in the BoVD. Many thought that these entities where not given their proper due and wouldl fall easily to epic level characters.

Now the BoVD states that adding a divine rank to these beings will allow them to grant spells but wouldn't make them much tougher. Well, I disagree.

I added a divine rank to the demonlord Yeenoghu and he became quite a bit more powerful. (he is in the rogues gallery if your interested). I think that adding divine ranks to the demon lords and arch devils is an easy and appropriate fix for people who expect a bit more from their lords of darkness.

I also found that divine demonlords/arch devils are much more powerful than deities fo similar rank. Most demigods start out as humans or demihumans and then ascend to divinity. A typical demigod in Deities and demigods is a 20th level character who has gained immortality. A demon lord or arch devil is already quite a bit more powerful than a 20th level character and thus as a demigod he is quite a bit more powerful than a typical demigod. It is even more evident at higher divine ranks, I have made Orcus a lesser god and he stands head and shoulders over most lesser deities I have seen in any sourcebook. Divinty for these guys is like the ultimate template, they already have a ton of power and becoming a god just adds to their already impressive abilities.

As an example compare the demigod Imhotep from deities and demigods to the write up of Yeenoghu I posted in the rogues gallery.

So anyway, this is my answer to the "demonlords/arch devils aren't powerful enough" complaint. Anyone else done anything like this?

Dirge

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi BLACKDIRGE!

Adding Quasi-deity power to a 20th-level character is the equivalent of a +9 ECL Template (or +18 with the ability score increase).

Adding Divine Rank 1 is the equivalent of a +18 ECL Template (or +27 with the ability score increases).

Each subsequent Divine Rank equals +3 ECL.

While I haven't seen the Book of Vile Darkness yet (beyond Asmodeus stats) it appears they already have many of the same abilities (Spell Resistance; Damage Reduction; Immunities etc.) that divinity entails and as such won't benefit as much from applying Divine Ranks.

Also I wouldn't use Imhotep as a standard Demigod.

 

[The Serge]

I think the stats for the Lords of Darkness in BoVD were substandard. Additionally, if you're going to change the stats, I don't think it can be done without some serious retooling.

For example, I noticed that you just stacked on a DvR 1 to Yeenoghu and then added two SDAs and Domain powers. You essentially treated him in the same fashion Tiamat and Bahamut were treated and I don't think this really does much for him as an intriguing character. There's nothing truly... unique about him or any of the other "Lords of Darkness" if one simply slaps a few DvRs on them. This is the reason why they end up appearing more powerful than similarly ranked beings. But, they're not. They don't receive the same Feat selection. They don't receive any class levels. The only thing they have going for them are their higher attack bonuses since we're using their Outsider HD exclusively.

I continue to stand with the idea that the Lords of Darkness should have maintained their true divine status a la 1ed and 2ed.

And Ihmotep is not a good choice for comparison. Try Heracles.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

I think the stats for the Lords of Darkness in BoVD were substandard. Additionally, if you're going to change the stats, I don't think it can be done without some serious retooling.

For example, I noticed that you just stacked on a DvR 1 to Yeenoghu and then added two SDAs and Domain powers. You essentially treated him in the same fashion Tiamat and Bahamut were treated and I don't think this really does much for him as an intriguing character. There's nothing truly... unique about him or any of the other "Lords of Darkness" if one simply slaps a few DvRs on them. This is the reason why they end up appearing more powerful than similarly ranked beings. But, they're not. They don't receive the same Feat selection. They don't receive any class levels. The only thing they have going for them are their higher attack bonuses since we're using their Outsider HD exclusively.

I continue to stand with the idea that the Lords of Darkness should have maintained their true divine status a la 1ed and 2ed.

And Ihmotep is not a good choice for comparison. Try Heracles.

I agree with you partially. Simply adding DVR to a demon lord does not make him unique, but using the stats in the BoVD as a base makes the job of retooling them a lot easier.

Yeenoghu was my first attempt and I see now that there are better ways to do things. I am currently working on Orcus as a lesser god and I have added some class levels (necromancer)along with the other benifits he would normally receive for being a god of rank 6. He is shaping up quite well.

I guess I would like to stick to "official WoTC D&D" as closely as possible, and for me using the stats in the BoVD and adding DVR is the best way to do that. This is of course only what works best for me.

Thanks

Dirge

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I think the stats in the BOVD are fine. I used to think they were weak, but a CR 60 demon is waaaaaaaay to powerful.

 

[Endur]

I see both sides

I see both sides of the picture.

If you are going to add divine ranks to Demon Lords and Arch Devils, you really need to sit down and decide whether you want to keep the current "balance of power" in hell/abyss or whether you don't care.

If you don't care, it doesn't matter.

If you do care, then are you going to make all of the Demon Lords and Arch Devils have the same divine rank? They have roughly the same number of hit dice -- all are in the 30's, but have a wide range of powers. Their stats are also very close together.

I could very easily see Asmodeus as a Greater God (ruler of Hell), but then what do you do with the other Dukes and Arch Devils?

Tom

 

[Crothian]

I think the stats in the BOVD are fine. I used to think they were weak, but a CR 60 demon is waaaaaaaay to powerful.

It really depends on what you want them for. If you want the characters to become epic and take advantage of the ELH, then you might want to boost up the their stats since they are not made using those rules.

 

[Nightfall]

I agree with Crothy. I'd MUCH prefer an Orcus with LOTS of HD and power/spells/spell-like abilities with DCs in the mid 40s, high 50 ranges. THEN I'd feel comfortable with an Epic Level campaign, along with having demon/devil cults.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Here is a little something I posted a few days ago on the Wizards message boards.

If you want a simply system to balance the princes and archdukes with their peers yet boost their power I suggest the following:

Assume:
between 80-119 HD/Levels = Greater God
between 60-79 HD/Levels = Intermediate God
between 40-59 HD/Levels = Lesser God
between 30-39 HD/Levels = Demigod
between 20-29 HD/Levels = Quasi-deity

1. If you believe the upper echelons of power should be equivalent to greater gods:

Take 1st Ed. hit points and divide by 2 to find current Hit Dice/Levels.

eg. Demogorgon 200hp would become 100 HD/Levels

eg. Kostchtchie 96hp would become 48 HD/Levels = Lesser God

eg. Dispater 144hp would become 72 HD/Levels = Intermediate God

2. If you believe the upper echelons of power should be equivalent to Intermediate Gods:

Take 1st Ed. hit points and divide by 3 to find HD/Levels.

eg. Demogorgon 200hp would become 66HD/Levels

3. If you believe the upper echelons of power should be equivalent to Lesser Gods (as they originally were):

Take 1st Ed. hit points and divide by 4 to find HD/Levels.

eg. Demogorgons 200hp becomes 50 HD/Levels

4. If you believe the upper echelons of power should be equivalent to Demigods:

Take 1st Ed. hit points and divide by 6 to find HD/Levels.

eg. Demogorgons 200hp becomes 33 HD/Levels

5. If you believe the upper echelons of power should be equivalent to Quasi-deities:

Take 1st Ed. hit points and divide by 8 to find HD/Levels.

eg. Demogorgons 200hp becomes 25 HD/Levels

Incidently I would suggest that some of the 1st Ed. hit point totals do not accurately reflect that beings status (notably Lolth and to a lesser extent Orcus; and possibly Baphomet; Juiblex and Yeenoghu)

You might want to try tripling Lolths hit points and multiplying Orcus/Baphomet/Yeenoghu by x1.5

Lolth 198
Orcus 180
Baphomet 159
Yeenoghu 150

I always liked the idea that Baalzebul was a fallen solar with 177 instead of 166 hit points as well!

 

[The Serge]

Re: I see both sides

I could very easily see Asmodeus as a Greater God (ruler of Hell), but then what do you do with the other Dukes and Arch Devils?

The templates I created allow the Dukes to be DvR 0, Arch-Devils (like the now deposed Geryon and Moloch, and I guess Gargauth of FR, as well as those of my own creation) to be DvR 0 with a Virtual DvR 1.

Eight of the Lords of the Nine are also DvR 0 and receive a Virtual DvR = half their Charisma modifier + 3 while in Hell. So, Mephistopheles his a DvR 11. For the purposes of my template, a Virtual DvR affords immunities and the ability to stand up against the power of another divine being without opening the door for SDAs, increased SR, and most of the other elements associated with true divinity. This way, Mephistopheles can conceiveably fight against a true god in his own realm on relatively equal footing in the unlikely event something like that were to occur.

The King of Hell is the only one of the Lords I gave full divinity to -- DvR 16 -- and that's just his avatar, Asmodeus. He exists under special restrictions that balance out his relatively limited impact on the Prime.

I agree with Nightfall. I think the "Lords of Darkness" in BoVD are pathetic when compared to some of the other beings in the ELH. It was mentioned by Bruce Cordell that concepts associated with the ELH were used in creating these stats. Well, I think it's ashame that a Devastation Beetle would probably stomp a mudhole in Asmodeus. I also think that planar rulers should be more powerful than even a Prismatic Dragon (currently the most powerful non-divine being in D&D).

When I get around to creating my versions of the Demon Princes, Orcus will either be a god or a very powerful divine being with Virtual DvRs. In the case of the latter, he will probably have a CR in the mid to high 50s.