Demon Lords and Demigods

[Upper_Krust]

Re: I see both sides

Hi Serge mate!

just about to respond to your email by the way.

I agree with Nightfall. I think the "Lords of Darkness" in BoVD are pathetic when compared to some of the other beings in the ELH. It was mentioned by Bruce Cordell that concepts associated with the ELH were used in creating these stats. Well, I think it's ashame that a Devastation Beetle would probably stomp a mudhole in Asmodeus. I also think that planar rulers should be more powerful than even a Prismatic Dragon (currently the most powerful non-divine being in D&D).

While I empathise with your opinion I think it is an injustice to attack the Book of Vile Darkness itself.

What you could argue is that the lack of continuity between various WotC rulebooks is something thats backfired in the eyes of many people.

While WotC would respond that they wanted each to work as a standalone product bereft of anything but the core rulebooks; I would anticipate that less than 10% of the people who bought the Epic Level Handbook didn't already have Deities & Demigods or Manual of the Planes - technically these ARE 'core rulebooks' in all but name.

Likewise with the Book of Vile Darkness, though its slant deviated somewhat from the 'norm', still carried its share of anticipated core material (Archfiend information).

 

[digitaldark]

One thing a lot of people tend to forget (IMO) is the fact that the relative "power" of the individual's self is NOT the extent of their power! They are Demon lords after all! Lord indicating they rule....rulers have power that extend beyond their physical self... for intance... A 1st level warrior may not have a chance against a party of 4 10th level characters....but a 1st level warrior who is a king is more than a match (if not overwhelming)....because the party of 4 10th level adventurers must get through his kingdom first!

Asmodeus may be a decent challenge for a group of 4 32nd level adventurers....but that is only if they can manage getting to him... with Asmodeus being the ruler of pretty much all devils that means they are going to need to get through layers and layer of devils (which, yes, could the layers can canceivably possibly be bypassed in some manner) and then make it through Asmodeus' hordes of POWERFUL devils and fiends......

I feel they are more than powerful enough as written....

The way I see is is most people take the demon lord and put it in a completely bare 100ft by 100ft room with a party of 4 adventures of equal level and say the party defeats them easily...of course they will...you've taken the demon lord out of its context and its world..just like anything would out if its context...its like taking a shark out of the water and saying it is a gold fish because it can't hurt you when its on land...but get in the water with it..and you're pretty much at its mercy..

who says you have to redo or modify the Lord when you can create his powerful minions.. (much more creative and rewarding IMHO than buffing up the Lords...and it gets to the same point...who's to say Asmodeus doesn't have a Paragon Balor Fighter 20 minion somewhere waiting to destroy his adversaries.... )

anywayz...just my .02 worth and me defending one of my favorite authors interpretive rights...

 

[The Serge]

Re: Re: I see both sides

Hi Serge mate!

Hey, U_K!

While I empathise with your opinion I think it is an injustice to attack the Book of Vile Darkness itself.

My comments weren't intended as an attack... As I mentioned in my review at gamingreport.com, I am pleased to own BoVD. But I do agree with you whole-heartedly that the problem extends beyond BoVD... something I mentioned in my DDG and ELH reviews.

 

[Aeris Winterood]

power rating?

I think they are very powerful as is.

Take Demogorgon for example. He has an AC of 47, which means a 30th level fighter with a +5 sword, and +5 str stil needs a roll of 12 or better to hit. Some of his special attacks has DC saves of 47 or more.. which most 30th level characters woudl need nat. 20's to make. And people say these NPC's are week? I beg to differ... unless peple are playing in a Monte Haul type campaign....

.. Heck, I have been playing this (3E) since it came out and my main characters are still only 13th level. To each thier own I guess.

 

[Lady Dragon]

It doesn't really matter what Demegorgon's exact stats are because if you don't like them the add or subtract from them as you see fit, give him divine rank of epic feats.

I do agree that it is very annoying that Deities and Demigods,Epic Level Handbook and now Book of Vile Darkness don't always mesh I for one own all of these and I agree that most people who bought one probably the other two as well as the other Quasi-core rulebooks such as Manual of the planes and Monster manual II.