Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[Mirtek]

This all mounts down to the question of why the PCs don't kill all the 10th level aritocrat kings and topple the kingdoms.

Mostly because:

a) They're not evil
b) There are laws against this

Neither of this prevents them from doing it in the Abyss. And it even often happens on prime material world when some bandits ride into a remote border village, slay the officials of the town and set themselves as the new rulers (usually leading to an adventure for the PCs to drive them out)

 

[Largomad]

My answer to the OP is that I take the CRs given as some kind of avatars with similar mechanics to those of gods.
In this particular light, I consider the given ranges most appropiate for the taste of my game but if I had to use them as the "real" powers perhaps I will feel them a bit on the lower end.
Frakly the fact that some creatures of monster manual I (if I recall correctly one of the variety of the nighshadows ) range near the level of power named demon princes sounds wrong to me.

 

[Vuron]

Personally I see the heavy duty named princes and lords as the equivalent of a fully advanced Balor + special abilities for flavor. In thier home plane they likely have additional powers that make them the equivalent of some demigods (Divine Ranking 1-5).

However they lack that power outside of thier homeplane(s) and most likely thier sanctum sanctorum. Thus if you are an extremely powerful archmage like Zagyg or Iggwilv you can summon and bind a demon prince to the prime material and force thier service but to truly defeat them you have to beard the beast in it's own den.

Permanent defeat would require chipping away at the artifacts and places of power on Azzgarat or Abyssm that the Demon Prince uses to mimic true divine strength. One of Graz'zt's sources of power might be a demonic cage that holds a fully advanced Solar Proxy of one of the gods of the campaign. Graz'zt might use that imprisoned solar to siphon off a fraction of the divine power of the solar's master. The throneroom of orcus might be at the center of a vast design channeling necromantic energy from the plane itself.

This would explain why Demon Princes can be bound by mortals yet they seem relatively eternal. This would also explain why the Demon Princes struggle against each other without success and why Orcus could reclaim his plane from an usurper as the usurper lacked the attunement to the nexuses of power on the plane.

In this sort of system you could defeat a demon prince like Demogorgon even without using epic level characters by chipping away at the pillars that support him. By summoning and binding his balor and Marlith servants you limit his ability to exert his power. By making raids on his sites of power you reduce the divine (abyssal) strength he's able to assert. Finally if you manage to reduce enough of his support structure you could show up in his sanctum sanctorum with a full load of allies, cohort, gated creatures, and likely the aid of another demon prince and you could slay demogorgon.

Of course that just means that either a PC has to step into the void and become inevitably corrupted or another demon prince claims the plane.

 

[Kain Darkwind]

Moderator:

Kain, please tone it down. In The Rules we use around here, #1 is "Keep it civil". We ask you to be polite, even if you find what other people say less than pleasing.

I said 'please'.....would the conotations of 'complain' be better than snivel?

 

[Agent Oracle]

How the logic works on this one:

I am A Demon Prince, i am slightly stronger than all other demons, and my father is VERY strong.

I am A Balor. I am almost as strong as a demon prince, but were I to attack one directly, I would most certainly loose without backup.

we are a hoarde of lesser demons. If a Balor were to attack the demon prince, and we were to side with the Balor, he would win... of course, in the process, that prince would probably kill many of us, and the balor would probably be very weak, which would allow the Celestials to come in and kill us all...

Not to mention that my dad would probably kill you all anyway for disobeying my commands

:Rolleyes: We Think we are happy with the existing power situation in this plane of torment.

 

[Aus_Snow]

It speaks volumes about how poorly supported epic-level play in general is, and the default assumption is Lvl 20 tops. This is a shame - I run an epic-level game, and I'd like more material to draw on. But if WotC did their research - and surely they must have done - it puts me firmly in a minority camp. I don't anticipate any new supplements in this area. I guess I just have to suck it up, and do any modifications myself.

(emphasis mine)

Pretty much exactly what I was going to say (all of the above).

 

[Agent Oracle]

Mostly because:

a) They're not evil
b) There are laws against this

Neither of this prevents them from doing it in the Abyss. And it even often happens on prime material world when some bandits ride into a remote border village, slay the officials of the town and set themselves as the new rulers (usually leading to an adventure for the PCs to drive them out)

oddly, the Devils (from Baator) are all lawful, which means they adhere to SOME kind of code and / or heirarchy, maybe it's like when Arthur yanked the sword from the stone... anyone could have run up and killed the young boy who was proclaimed king, but a sense of lawful respect kept them from doing it.

That said, i'd hate to rule the devils... i don't want to be known ad The Master of Baator.

 

[The Serge]

1) Deities had better stats that archfiends. So did solars. (Rip, you can talk about theoretical lower limits to divine stats all you want, but the fact is that there IS a theoretical lower limit. It's represented by Lolth.)

Yes, solars did. And some deities did. However, this does not discount the fact that the archfiends were still considered as lesser gods in 1ed.

2) EGG and Ed Greenwood proposed moving the goblin, orc, and kobold pantheons out of the Nine Hells in order to avoid the question of "why don't these deities rule the Hells themselves?", NOT because of some in-game story reason that the archfiends had kicked them out.

However, there was a development in 2ed that suggested that the Lords of the Nine, perhaps just one, forced the orcish pantheon out of Hell (DRAGON Magazine 223). On Hallowed Ground continued this theory:

Chant is the Lords of the Nine could even give the rope to the true powers of the plane -- but they choose not to, out of deference. If it's true, the lords are remarkably tolerant. If it's a peel, they've got a remarkably good propaganda machine, because Baator's deities show no inkling of challenging the lords.

emphasis mine

Never heard of this. Chapter and verse, please.
That's Dicefreaks canon, AFAICT. I don't see any evidence for it in WotC material.

Actually, this was adapted from and expanded upon Planescape canon. It's in Planes of Law and in On Hallowed Ground and in DRAGON Magazine 223. And the texts imply that Set is on the defensive in this contest.

Again, chapter and verse. Planes of Law rather clearly states that the goblin pantheon is "long established on Acheron," while the orcish pantheon has moved from Gehenna to the Hells to Acheron. That doesn't imply Asmodeus forcing Gruumsh to do anything.

The reference to Asmodeus specifically, AFAICT, happened more or less simultaneously with my earliest Dicefreaks work and with the official PS website. However, it was never clearly said that Asmodeus did anything, but that perhaps one of the Lords.

Certainly, both the 1e MotP and Planes of Chaos note that not many deities settle in the Abyss because "few deities wish to contend with the upstart demon life that inhabits the plane." That hardly sounds like getting slapped around to me.

If they were so powerful, they wouldn't worry about "upstart demon life." If I'm unhappy with mosquitos, I set things up to kill them or at least encourage them to move elsewhere.

1) On their home planes, they're treated as having a divine rank of sorts ("cosmic rank": Thanks, Serge, Kain, and all the 'Freaks!) that allows them to control their planes in a manner analogous to that of true deities. On and off their home planes, they have the ability to resist salient divine abilities and deific powers in a manner appropriate to their relative cosmic rank.

You're welcome!

As to "slaying archfiends and taking their stuff," one could easily make the same argument with statted deities. A campaign that's geared around treating Demogorgon like a big monster with no agenda other than a fencing dummy's can equally be played with Zeus; he's got hit points and Armor Class and everything. That said, I do like archfiends to be within the grasp of fighting for epic-level PCs, with the true deities slightly less so. My PCs/NPCs are unlikely to ever get past 30th level (although I do play past 20th), so while they might be able to face down a Duke of Hell or outfox a demon lord, they still won't be able to take on a demonic paradigm like Demogorgon or a master manipulator like Dispater without divine help.

This is essentiallly the position that DF takes ratcheted up a few levels.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Yes, solars did. And some deities did. However, this does not discount the fact that the archfiends were still considered as lesser gods in 1ed.


However, there was a development in 2ed that suggested that the Lords of the Nine, perhaps just one, forced the orcish pantheon out of Hell (DRAGON Magazine 223). On Hallowed Ground continued this theory:

Of course, these are phrased as rumor. And I'd expect the baatezu high-ups to have a superb propaganda machine.

Actually, this was adapted from and expanded upon Planescape canon. It's in Planes of Law and in On Hallowed Ground and in DRAGON Magazine 223. And the texts imply that Set is on the defensive in this contest.

I only see this in Dragon 223 (I don't own OHG). Where is it in Planes of Law?

If they were so powerful, they wouldn't worry about "upstart demon life." If I'm unhappy with mosquitos, I set things up to kill them or at least encourage them to move elsewhere.

Tell that to my girlfriend's family at their lake house. We just have to wear a centimeter-thick layer of repellent at all times...

 

[Mirtek]

oddly, the Devils (from Baator) are all lawful, which means they adhere to SOME kind of code and / or heirarchy, maybe it's like when Arthur yanked the sword from the stone... anyone could have run up and killed the young boy who was proclaimed king, but a sense of lawful respect kept them from doing it.

And I agree that such rulers could work in Baator. But never in the Abyss

Actually, this was adapted from and expanded upon Planescape canon. It's in Planes of Law and in On Hallowed Ground and in DRAGON Magazine 223. And the texts imply that Set is on the defensive in this contest.

Not sure about Planes of Law, bur Dragon 223 didn't sound as if Set were denfensive, neither did On Hallowed Grounds.