Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
Also, if you haven't played or even read this particular adventure then I'd suggest you do so first before spouting off about how bad it is, thanks.
Demon Queens Enclave - Session Reports
- Thread starter Mathew_Freeman
- Start date
Also, if you haven't played or even read this particular adventure then I'd suggest you do so first before spouting off about how bad it is, thanks.
IIRC, every adventure that has "Different Factions", generally the goal is to pit one faction against the other. The PC's goal is to get one group to help them take out another group, before kicking the crap out of their temporary allies.
This is what you did in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, etc. It's sowing discord and using someone else's resources to tackle your next objective.
See: Yojimbo (or the American version: Last Man Standing).
This is what you did in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, etc. It's sowing discord and using someone else's resources to tackle your next objective.
See: Yojimbo (or the American version: Last Man Standing).
gribble
Explorer
Both of these echo my experience as a player. The adventure must read a lot better than it plays, because a lot of people who have read through it rate it very highly, but in actual play I found it a tedious chore. Usually, it wasn't obvious to us as players that we were supposed to ally with or talk to any factions. When it was obvious, it usually seemed like a bad option, and just killing everything in the room seemed like the best bet (especially given that we're talking about cutting deals with creatures that are known to be evil backstabbers).wayne62682 said:
I'd definitely suggest playing up the points where there are options for diplomacy as opposed to genocide (if they do exist, which most people who have read the module - as opposed to played it - seem to think there are), and try to make it actually seem like an attractive/viable option.
This wasn't our experience. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that we found most of the combats fairly easy, though usually filled with what seemed like random assortments of very grindy opponents.
In fact, now (about 9 months after playing it), I struggle to remember many memorable combats... Probably the best was
the fight near the entrance of the drow city with the humanoids and mind flayer holed up in the keep
The toughest fight we had was the one against
the wizard? on top of the Pyramid in the town in the Shadowfell. The one surrounded by screaming/exploding? skulls. My memory is fairly vague at the moment, but I recall that being a tough fight for us
This was very much our experience with it. Again, for us it didn't seem like there were any options except "slog your way through".
And not enough for your level, from memory. It certainly seemed like we got very little in the way of rewards during the adventure.
In summary - my experience playing through this was very poor. Definitely play up any elements that the adventure provides for diplomacy and/or cunning planning, as opposed to slogging your way along the railway track.
fireinthedust
Explorer
I've read it, and like it.
I've played in 2e with Drow as patrons: they pay really goo if you can kill their rivals. Sure, they'll backstab you; but if you're an optimized killing machine they'll likely only do it in an emergency.
Anyhoo, that was how my 2e fighter got items to allot him to do 4 attacks a round, totaling upwards of 60 damage, at level 6-8. That was a lot back then.
Wow, drow are like crime syndicates.
[sblock=teaming up with badguys rant] However: I personally don't like how major 3e APs had the climax in the Abyss, teaming up with Grazzt and Orcus to beat on Demogorgon; or other team ups with demons and devils. While drow aren't as bad per se, I do see the point of complaint.
I think the idea for major team-ups is to get the PCs to work with D&D "celebrities" like Orcus, Tiamat, Vecna, etc. That and it's the only way to save the day. However, I think it's a misplaced trope when the allies are horrifically evil-personified demons and devils. While, as a Christian, I've never had a problem with D&D and I want to be clear about this as a gamer it makes me & us look bad when the plot asks PCs to team up with devils/demons. Full Stop. Specifically NOT the playing part. I mean the part where I explain to people who DON'T GAME and who think that we're a bunch of *maybe* demon-worshippers, who the allies are.
Also, it's a pain for a Paladin group, and it doesn't make sense that the PCs would be on the level to team up with Orcus, who shifted an entire city (Moil) into a demiplane and turned its people into Moilian Zombies. Oh well. [/end soapbox]
Totally separate issue, tho, from the OP.[/sblock]
Granted, this is a wicked cool module, and I have no problems with it. Orcus is clearly the "force of nature" threat, and alliance there is obviously bad.
Teaming up with Drow, if not to save them then to save the world, is a moral dilemma. Not only for Paladins & Elves, but for all PCs now.
Recommendations for Diplomacy Frankly, make it obvious. Have the Drow jump out and go "help me, I'm begging you!" and "If you don't help us, your surface world will be swallowed by undead[/color].
This is obviously where the DM has to hit the PCs over the head with what he/she wants them to do. Introduce the dilemma with a hammer. The Drow can play nice for a while, though throw in slips of the tongue (I haven't eaten a baby in days) followed by an apology (Oh, sorry; I meant baby cave chickens, a delicacy among my people).
Final combat: Looks brutal. I'd recommend fixing one earlier fight with something brutal but *almost* survivable. The PCs should be forewarned. Maybe an NPC puppy with a rod of raise dead?
I've played in 2e with Drow as patrons: they pay really goo if you can kill their rivals. Sure, they'll backstab you; but if you're an optimized killing machine they'll likely only do it in an emergency.
Anyhoo, that was how my 2e fighter got items to allot him to do 4 attacks a round, totaling upwards of 60 damage, at level 6-8. That was a lot back then.
Wow, drow are like crime syndicates.
[sblock=teaming up with badguys rant] However: I personally don't like how major 3e APs had the climax in the Abyss, teaming up with Grazzt and Orcus to beat on Demogorgon; or other team ups with demons and devils. While drow aren't as bad per se, I do see the point of complaint.
I think the idea for major team-ups is to get the PCs to work with D&D "celebrities" like Orcus, Tiamat, Vecna, etc. That and it's the only way to save the day. However, I think it's a misplaced trope when the allies are horrifically evil-personified demons and devils. While, as a Christian, I've never had a problem with D&D and I want to be clear about this as a gamer it makes me & us look bad when the plot asks PCs to team up with devils/demons. Full Stop. Specifically NOT the playing part. I mean the part where I explain to people who DON'T GAME and who think that we're a bunch of *maybe* demon-worshippers, who the allies are.
Also, it's a pain for a Paladin group, and it doesn't make sense that the PCs would be on the level to team up with Orcus, who shifted an entire city (Moil) into a demiplane and turned its people into Moilian Zombies. Oh well. [/end soapbox]
Totally separate issue, tho, from the OP.[/sblock]
Granted, this is a wicked cool module, and I have no problems with it. Orcus is clearly the "force of nature" threat, and alliance there is obviously bad.
Teaming up with Drow, if not to save them then to save the world, is a moral dilemma. Not only for Paladins & Elves, but for all PCs now.
Recommendations for Diplomacy Frankly, make it obvious. Have the Drow jump out and go "help me, I'm begging you!" and "If you don't help us, your surface world will be swallowed by undead[/color].
This is obviously where the DM has to hit the PCs over the head with what he/she wants them to do. Introduce the dilemma with a hammer. The Drow can play nice for a while, though throw in slips of the tongue (I haven't eaten a baby in days) followed by an apology (Oh, sorry; I meant baby cave chickens, a delicacy among my people).
Final combat: Looks brutal. I'd recommend fixing one earlier fight with something brutal but *almost* survivable. The PCs should be forewarned. Maybe an NPC puppy with a rod of raise dead?
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Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
Thanks for all the responses, and I'll certainly be playing up the Diplomacy option. One of the PC's, as noted, is playing a Drow Bard who is a family member of Matron Urlvrain, so he's likely to be trying to talk to people rather than going in and slaying them. I hope this'll make the adventure much more interesting.
We had the first session last night, and we've ended up with the following:
Drow Bard
Human Avenger
Eladrin Paladin (not Goliath)
Human Wizard
Half-Orc Ranger
A new player, Ian, joined us for the first time and played the Ranger I'd created for him. I'll give him a few weeks and then see if he wants to change the character to something else, as it was pretty much a case of "Hi, I'm Mathew, nice to meet you, you haven't played 4e before, no problems, here's a 14th level character, Heselbine here will explain how it all works, off we go..." Thankfully he's a D&D veteran and grokked the game very quickly.
I introduced the adventure via the all-purpose joy of Valthrun the Prescient, Sage of Winterhaven, tied in a few details from Keep on the Shadowfell (which three of the group had played / DM'd) and sent them on their way to the Miser's Pit.
After some local colour (the locked building with the dead bodies inside produced some interesting theories) I dropped them into a combat beside a lake of magma, as three Magma Brutes climbed out to attack, followed a round later by a descending Eye of Flame. Much consternation at first ("Beholder! Argh! Kill it, quick!").
Mechanical note: Beholders have a really neat mechanic that makes them very dangerous. The Eye of Flame can make one character a round Vulnerable 10 to fire, and add ongoing 5 damage (save ends) to any hit that deals fire damage. Combine this with a Fire Ray (dealing 2d8+6 fire on a hit) and suddenly there are a few characters running around, on fire, taking 15 points ongoing. Very satisfying. The other two options are a Fear Ray (making the characters move away) and a Telekinesis Ray (slide 4 on a hit). The TK ray came in very useful for throwing the Wizard right between a couple of Magma Brutes on an island on the edge of the lava pool.
However, Heselbine spotted that one of the Magma Brutes was prone, lying partly in the lava, and asked for an Acrobatics check to use it as a bridge to get back to land. He took 5 fire damage for his pains, but got back to safety.
Other notes from the combat:
Everyone was still getting used to 14th level. Lots of comments that they were a little overwhelmed by the number of choices available in terms of powers. I think only a few at-wills were used, as everyone was having fun laying down Encounter powers, and even a few dailies.
Several players missed opportunities to use Immediate Interrupts because they couldn't remember which power they wanted to use. To their credit, they all decided to press on regardless rather than holding up the game, for which I thank them.
LOTS of pushing, sliding and other effects stacking up on the table. The Magma Brutes were thrown all over the place, which was lots of fun for me. The Wizard has a lot of Thunder powers, so the Brutes kept being flung back from him. Really enjoyed the dynamic nature of the combat as it took place.
Drow Bard has taken some one-shot alchemy items. Not sure how they're going to work out - anyone got any experience with alchemical stuff?
Ranger did bucket-loads of damage with his Greatbow + Hunter's Quarry, and also got the killing shot on the Eye of Flame, which was nice for him as a first-time player.
Avenger made good use of Oath of Emnity, using good powers to ensure that he was targetting the right creature. Didn't help much when he rolled (over three rounds) 1, 1, 3, 4, 5, 3 on his attacks, though. The double-1 was greeted with much laughter.
Only one crit in the fight, which was the first shot by the Eye of Flame. Still waiting for our first PC crit, which I'm surprised by, but it'll be worth it when it comes.
We're playing again in two weeks time, and I'll be throwing them swiftly into the Fanglord / Ghoul encounter. I suspect some negotiation will take place and it should kick off the rest of the adventure nicely.
We had the first session last night, and we've ended up with the following:
Drow Bard
Human Avenger
Eladrin Paladin (not Goliath)
Human Wizard
Half-Orc Ranger
A new player, Ian, joined us for the first time and played the Ranger I'd created for him. I'll give him a few weeks and then see if he wants to change the character to something else, as it was pretty much a case of "Hi, I'm Mathew, nice to meet you, you haven't played 4e before, no problems, here's a 14th level character, Heselbine here will explain how it all works, off we go..." Thankfully he's a D&D veteran and grokked the game very quickly.
I introduced the adventure via the all-purpose joy of Valthrun the Prescient, Sage of Winterhaven, tied in a few details from Keep on the Shadowfell (which three of the group had played / DM'd) and sent them on their way to the Miser's Pit.
After some local colour (the locked building with the dead bodies inside produced some interesting theories) I dropped them into a combat beside a lake of magma, as three Magma Brutes climbed out to attack, followed a round later by a descending Eye of Flame. Much consternation at first ("Beholder! Argh! Kill it, quick!").
Mechanical note: Beholders have a really neat mechanic that makes them very dangerous. The Eye of Flame can make one character a round Vulnerable 10 to fire, and add ongoing 5 damage (save ends) to any hit that deals fire damage. Combine this with a Fire Ray (dealing 2d8+6 fire on a hit) and suddenly there are a few characters running around, on fire, taking 15 points ongoing. Very satisfying. The other two options are a Fear Ray (making the characters move away) and a Telekinesis Ray (slide 4 on a hit). The TK ray came in very useful for throwing the Wizard right between a couple of Magma Brutes on an island on the edge of the lava pool.
However, Heselbine spotted that one of the Magma Brutes was prone, lying partly in the lava, and asked for an Acrobatics check to use it as a bridge to get back to land. He took 5 fire damage for his pains, but got back to safety.
Other notes from the combat:
Everyone was still getting used to 14th level. Lots of comments that they were a little overwhelmed by the number of choices available in terms of powers. I think only a few at-wills were used, as everyone was having fun laying down Encounter powers, and even a few dailies.
Several players missed opportunities to use Immediate Interrupts because they couldn't remember which power they wanted to use. To their credit, they all decided to press on regardless rather than holding up the game, for which I thank them.
LOTS of pushing, sliding and other effects stacking up on the table. The Magma Brutes were thrown all over the place, which was lots of fun for me. The Wizard has a lot of Thunder powers, so the Brutes kept being flung back from him. Really enjoyed the dynamic nature of the combat as it took place.
Drow Bard has taken some one-shot alchemy items. Not sure how they're going to work out - anyone got any experience with alchemical stuff?
Ranger did bucket-loads of damage with his Greatbow + Hunter's Quarry, and also got the killing shot on the Eye of Flame, which was nice for him as a first-time player.
Avenger made good use of Oath of Emnity, using good powers to ensure that he was targetting the right creature. Didn't help much when he rolled (over three rounds) 1, 1, 3, 4, 5, 3 on his attacks, though. The double-1 was greeted with much laughter.
Only one crit in the fight, which was the first shot by the Eye of Flame. Still waiting for our first PC crit, which I'm surprised by, but it'll be worth it when it comes.
We're playing again in two weeks time, and I'll be throwing them swiftly into the Fanglord / Ghoul encounter. I suspect some negotiation will take place and it should kick off the rest of the adventure nicely.
Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
Ha, good question.
Heselbine (my brother) is running a weekly game on Tuesday nights, but since I'm going to be around near to him for some time I said I'd be happy to run some D&D so he'd get to play. He had apparently been thinking of extending to an additional night a week anyway, so I initially tried running a homebrew campaign. That wasn't going so well, so I offered the idea of this module as it's been my favourite so far when reading through them.
Et voila - one 14th level game.
It seems to be going OK so far, but I think the next session might be interesting with the three way fight. I'm going to make sure to take the advice, above, and have the Drider actively ask for help against the Undead.
Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
Next game on Thursday, so let's bring the discussion back on again.
I'm going to open with a quick recap of last week, hand out some minor magic items (from the Eye of Flame's hoard) and then launch into the 3-way fight with the Drider & Drow vs the Undead.
I've realised that this fight introduces a lot of valuable information:
1. There are Undead down here (although it's noted that a new Exarch of Orcus is around, this is the first encounter that actually features Undead).
2. The Drow are the Undead are in the middle of an invasion.
3. The Drow need help to survive.
4. Radiant powers (eg the Avenger and the Paladin) work really well against Undead (one player has never used a Divine character in 4e before).
5. Diplomatic solutions are going to work well.
As noted above, I've got a Drow Bard in the group, who has decided that his affiliation (when he left Phaervorul) was to Matron Urlvrain. As such, the Drider is going to flat-out ask him for help during the combat, as soon as he sees him. It's important to ensure that the party get the idea that the Drow need help, are asking for it, and will take it if offered.
Assuming the party win, ha, the Drider can then give directions to the city (neatly forgetting about the spiders guarding the bridge) and "remind" the Drow Bard about how to find Matron Urlvrain in the main Temple. If we get time I can run the Bridge encounter, too before the next session. I'll certainly be giving the first impressions of Phaervorul (it's a Drow settlement, bits of it are on fire, there are Demons and Undead rampaging around, etc).
According to this plan, the players will then be looking for Matron Urlvrain in order to lend assistance. She, being haughty, confident and a schemer, will ask them a favour before she tells them where the portal is. Take out the Drow Necromancer, and quell the Slave Rebellion.
I think introducing a complication (letting one of her subservient types letting slip about the Mage of Saruun in the area, plus some of the other areas) would make it fun. Give the party plenty to do and see if they get bogged down in trying to save Phaervorul, or if they go straight for the Orcus Exarch plot-line. We'll see.
Anyone spot any terrible flaws in my plans?
I'm going to open with a quick recap of last week, hand out some minor magic items (from the Eye of Flame's hoard) and then launch into the 3-way fight with the Drider & Drow vs the Undead.
I've realised that this fight introduces a lot of valuable information:
1. There are Undead down here (although it's noted that a new Exarch of Orcus is around, this is the first encounter that actually features Undead).
2. The Drow are the Undead are in the middle of an invasion.
3. The Drow need help to survive.
4. Radiant powers (eg the Avenger and the Paladin) work really well against Undead (one player has never used a Divine character in 4e before).
5. Diplomatic solutions are going to work well.
As noted above, I've got a Drow Bard in the group, who has decided that his affiliation (when he left Phaervorul) was to Matron Urlvrain. As such, the Drider is going to flat-out ask him for help during the combat, as soon as he sees him. It's important to ensure that the party get the idea that the Drow need help, are asking for it, and will take it if offered.
Assuming the party win, ha, the Drider can then give directions to the city (neatly forgetting about the spiders guarding the bridge) and "remind" the Drow Bard about how to find Matron Urlvrain in the main Temple. If we get time I can run the Bridge encounter, too before the next session. I'll certainly be giving the first impressions of Phaervorul (it's a Drow settlement, bits of it are on fire, there are Demons and Undead rampaging around, etc).
According to this plan, the players will then be looking for Matron Urlvrain in order to lend assistance. She, being haughty, confident and a schemer, will ask them a favour before she tells them where the portal is. Take out the Drow Necromancer, and quell the Slave Rebellion.
I think introducing a complication (letting one of her subservient types letting slip about the Mage of Saruun in the area, plus some of the other areas) would make it fun. Give the party plenty to do and see if they get bogged down in trying to save Phaervorul, or if they go straight for the Orcus Exarch plot-line. We'll see.
Anyone spot any terrible flaws in my plans?
Just a side note - this is a general tip, but a usual DM tactic.
When your Defender marks someone, or your Avenger designates an Oath, or whatnot - intentionally have the monster engage in the punishment behavior. Run from the avenger (if that's his build), attack someone while under the Divine Challenge.
This way, the ability sees the light of day, it lets the PC feel like they're contributing, and it puts it in the game (because if you never let it happen, then the ability never comes up).
The problem with this, IMO, is that the players are likely to go "We're offering to help you when you got yourselves over a barrel, and you want us to PROVE ourselves? Forget you, lady".
How I would do it would be to have her just lie to them. Say that the key to the portal is with the Drow Necromancer. And say "Oh and btw, a lot of our forces are being tied up in the Slave Rebellion - if you want reinforcements, that needs to be quelled."
This will send the PCs on the sidequest in her behest, and they won't learn that she lied to them until after they've done what she wanted.
vagabundo
Adventurer
Interesting thread. My group are only starting H2 BTW - they are slow!
You mentioned looking for some extra flavour on the underdark; Underdark for forgotten realms is chocked full of interesting stuff to pillage, the City of the Spider Queen has some good stuff too and there is a a web enhancement with some extra underdark encounters and side treks.
You mentioned looking for some extra flavour on the underdark; Underdark for forgotten realms is chocked full of interesting stuff to pillage, the City of the Spider Queen has some good stuff too and there is a a web enhancement with some extra underdark encounters and side treks.
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