Demonic Lore

[Grover Cleaveland]

galltrits, gremlins and their ilk were never extraplanar before

Yes, they were. Look at their entry in the 2e Monstrous Manual (which is the same as that in the 2e Monstrous Compendium: Greyhawk Appendix).

"Gremlins are magical creatures that originated on an unknown plane of existence."

"Gremlins are not a natural part of the ecology."

The designers of Planes of Chaos looked at their alignment and decided that this unknown plane was the Abyss, although in their original Dragon Magazine appearance (Dragon #79) it was our Earth, circa WWII (and this was emphasized in WG7 Castle Greyhawk).

I like them as Abyssal scavengers a lot, and consider Planes of Chaos a more valid reference than the early Dragon (where they were different in appearance and abilities) or WG7 (which was a parody adventure). If you like the idea of them entering the D&D multiverse through a rift in space opened by the atom bomb, as the Dragon article had it, you can certainly do that instead, but the Abyssal origin is at least as valid. As demonic-looking chaotic evil beings from another plane, it seems reasonable. And consider the context of that quote - all the other monsters on the list are of lower-planar origin (mephits are elemental, but they're commonly created by fiends). Humans, elves, and such are nowhere to be seen.

But no, they're not in any source native to Oerth or Faerun (though jermlaines, mites, and snyads probably are). Even in Castle Amber (where, again, they were different in appearance and abilities) they emerge from the Gray Mist which seperates the chateau from the mortal worlds - or may have, anyway. It's not completely clear. Castle Amber is itself an extraplanar environment, anyway. PC2 Top Ballista says "They be a fairly recent addition to this world, if I have the right of it," created by an immortal of the sphere of Entropy (which represents chaos and evil, although Mystaran gremlins, like some of the gremlin-goblinoid crossbreeds of Oerth [like fremlins] are more mischievous than wicked).

as for the krakentua, well the kara-tur cosmology doesn't necessarily correspond to the great wheel, and calling something a "demon" doesn't mean it has a bit of similarity to a tanar'ri demon (other than alignment).

They're not necessarily tanar'ri, no - this thread isn't, and correct me if I'm wrong, about tanar'ri only, but Abyssal things in general - and it does depend on whether or not you assume that Kara-Tur is connected to the Great Wheel. In 2nd edition, it generally was (look at all the OA monsters mentioned in the Planescape boxed set). It seems to me that, in such a campaign, the Celestial Bureaucracy would assign chaotic evil spirits to the planes of chaos and evil.

 

[BOZ]

well done. forcing you to explain yourself allows you to show your reasoning, and to show those viewing this thread where you are coming from that they may decide "the truth" for themselves. i would not make the gremlins from the Abyss (or any discernable place in particular), but that is my opinion.

as for the krakentua, not all things called "demon" are from the abyss or are what proper D&D considers a demon. yes, several things from K-T were mentioned in PS, but i don't recall the krakentua being one of them. some things not originally officially "D&D-Abyssal" (such as the several Dragonlance monsters you mentioned; remember that "Abyss" in DL was a general reference to all lower planes, not specifically the main CE plane) were later assumed by the PS designers to be officially abyssal. again, i say, as far as i know the krakentua was not one of them. a DM can decide that they are abyssal for his campaign, and a designer can decide that they are (making it official for all time), but until there is an official word it is DM-call. the celestial beurocracy is not tied to the same rules as the rest of the multiverse, and may have other planes that they use (Spirit World, for one). i think the krakentua, personally, is from the Spirit World, as you will note in the CC conversion (near the bottom): http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=852

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

well done. forcing you to explain yourself allows you to show your reasoning,

Devious!

the celestial beurocracy is not tied to the same rules as the rest of the multiverse, and may have other planes that they use (Spirit World, for one). i think the krakentua, personally, is from the Spirit World, as you will note in the CC conversion (near the bottom): http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=852

Sure, if the Spirit World exists in your campaign. In a core cosmology-only campaign, you're pretty much stuck with the Abyss (or the Material Plane). Certainly in 2e the Celestial Bureaucracy was tied to the rest of the multiverse and its rules.

 

[BOZ]

thus, it is open for interpretation.

and i'm not sure how much the celestial beurocracy was tied to the core cosmology. yes, they sort of operated together, and sort of not.

 

[Shemeska]

thus, it is open for interpretation.

and i'm not sure how much the celestial beurocracy was tied to the core cosmology. yes, they sort of operated together, and sort of not.

Well they were all there with domains in various planes of the Great Wheel. I never saw anything to seperate them from the Wheel to be honest.

 

[Alzrius]

Well they were all there with domains in various planes of the Great Wheel. I never saw anything to seperate them from the Wheel to be honest.

I agree with Shemmy on this one. The Celestial Bureaucracy is just a system of how that pantheon governs themselves, and works just fine on the Great Wheel cosmology.

 

[BOZ]

well, OK, maybe i should re-state what i mean. the celestial buerocracy was *physically* in the same *places* as the rest of the multiverse. but they were very much their own deal, and did their own things, and mostly preferred not to interact with anyone else.

thus, i would not assume that a krakentua *was* from the abyss simply because it *could be*. sometimes, the cleanest answer is not the best one. i'm sure that the chinese gods had some demiplanes (ala Spirit World) for one thing, and i don't see anything about the krakentua to firmly state that it was extraplanar in origin.

same thing for gremlins and their ilk. well, they clearly came from *somewhere* at some time, but not necessarily any plane we are familiar with.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

well, OK, maybe i should re-state what i mean. the celestial buerocracy was *physically* in the same *places* as the rest of the multiverse. but they were very much their own deal, and did their own things, and mostly preferred not to interact with anyone else.

That's true, but that doesn't mean they didn't use the full complement of planes on the Great Wheel. The Palace of Judgement in the Outlands has portals leading to more planes than any town but Sigil so that Yen-Wang-Yeh can assign petitioners to the place most appropriate to them.

The Bureaucracy has one demiplane - the Isle of the Immortals - but the Spirit World is purely a 3rd edition concept outside the Birthright campaign.

But you're right - it's all guesswork, and I never claimed (after my first post) that mine was the only possible interpretation of the krakentuas. If spirits all come from another plane - and I'm not saying they do - then in the Great Wheel cosmology the plane krakentuas, as chaotic and evil demon spirits, come from should be the Abyss, or perhaps Carceri. IMC they're in Gaping Maw.

Gremlins are specifically associated with the Abyss, however. They're little demons (though not tanar'ri) according to Planescape, which is the source of much of what we know about the Abyss. There's no reason anyone should be forced to go along with that, but that's the most recent official word.

 

[Alzrius]

but the Spirit World is purely a 3rd edition concept outside the Birthright campaign.

To be clear, that was the Shadow World, and even in its early history wasn't that much like the 3E MotP Spirit World.

If spirits all come from another plane - and I'm not saying they do - then in the Great Wheel cosmology the plane krakentuas, as chaotic and evil demon spirits, come from should be the Abyss, or perhaps Carceri.

Or Pandemonium, which is chaos with evil as an afterthought. Or maybe, just maybe, they're from a plane that's not an Outer Plane, like the Ethereal or some natural demiplane. All aligned creatures don't have to come from an Outer Plane.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

Or Pandemonium, which is chaos with evil as an afterthought. Or maybe, just maybe, they're from a plane that's not an Outer Plane, like the Ethereal or some natural demiplane.

Those are certainly possibilities, though they don't seem as appropriate to me. I mean, they're demon spirits. No matter how you parse that, the Abyss is the plane that comes to mind first.