Dervish with Whirlwind Attack feat

[pbd]

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And from a completely non-RAW standpoint, I think allowing them to stack voilates the flavor of the manaeuver these abilities are meant to represent:

Whirlwind Attack is meant to be a stationary, circular, don't-come-near-me, spinning blade of death. It's meant to fight against being surrounded.

Dervish Dance evokes a fluid style of fighting that makes use more of movement than anything else. It's moving through the battlefield, not fending people off from yourself.

Yes, they're both dance-like actions. They're both pretty cool. I think most Dervishes would have WWA, if only because they'll naturally meet the prereqs. But I think their uses are so different that they shouldn't combine.

Never heard of a whirlwind (tornado) that stood still...

 

[delfinjeriba]

Is it also possible to use the dervish dance, WWA and the a thousand cuts in order to strike every oponent you pass by twice?

 

[TheEvil]

Is it also possible to use the dervish dance, WWA and the a thousand cuts in order to strike every oponent you pass by twice?

Nope, with WWA, you only get ONE attack per opponent.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I don't see why they couldn't be combined. Even if it goes against the rules (which I don't believe it does) it makes sense and is not broken. So whats the issue then?

 

[Zaebos]

Although I haven't read through this entire post, I would like to point out something...

Spoiler Alert:
In Dungeon Issue #119 on page 44 there is an NPC
She is a Female Drow Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Dervish 5

Amazing creature, and really did a number on my PC's. I will list her feats and skills.

Skills: Balance +19, Bluff +7, Climb +11, Diplomacy +3, Intimidate +3, Jump +22, Listen +11, Perform (Dance) +16, Sense Motive +5, Spot +1, Tumble +21

Feats: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Highborn Drow*, Improved Two-Weapon FIghting, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Weapon Specialization (scimitar), Two-Weapon Fighting.

Just an FYI.

Now...

One could rule that you are not making a full attack, but using an extrodinary ability as an action I would say that you are not eligible for the WWA, since you are not using the full attack action but using an extrodinary ability as an action. This is somewhat of a stretch.

(Page 142 & 180 in the PH)

You could also rule that in this case, if she WWA's while she Dervish Dances, then she must give up her dervish dance since this is a special ability, and in Whirlwind attack it says "When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the cleave feat or the haste spell).

(PH 102)

I personally wouldn't allow it in my game,

But in the Dervish Dance description it says she takes a full attack action, so one could rule that WWA can be used in conjunction with Dervish Dance.

But in this instance I belive that Whirlwind Attack does not allow any use of special abilities given by Dervish Dance when used in toghether.

 

[Caliban]

Now...

One could rule that you are not making a full attack, but using an extrodinary ability as an action I would say that you are not eligible for the WWA, since you are not using the full attack action but using an extrodinary ability as an action. This is somewhat of a stretch.
(Page 142 & 180 in the PH)

A rather large stretch, and not supported by the rules. The Dervish dance specifically states that you are using a full attack action.

You could also rule that in this case, if she WWA's while she Dervish Dances, then she must give up her dervish dance since this is a special ability, and in Whirlwind attack it says "When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the cleave feat or the haste spell).

(PH 102)

That ruling doesn't work either. The Dervish attack doesn't grant you any bonus attacks or extra attacks. It allows you to move while taking your normal number of attacks for a full attack action.

But in the Dervish Dance description it says she takes a full attack action, so one could rule that WWA can be used in conjunction with Dervish Dance.

I think that is the most reasonable ruling.

But in this instance I belive that Whirlwind Attack does not allow any use of special abilities given by Dervish Dance when used in toghether.

Nothing in the Whirlwind feat disallows any of the abilities granted by the dervish dance.

I really don't think it's unbalanced (although it can be pretty annoying for the PC's when they face a Whirling Dervish). At higher levels the trend is to fight few creatures with a higher CR rather than multiple creatures with lower CR's. Anytime you do face several creatures, you are either being overpowered, or it's a mook fight that you are expected to win easily.

 

[Felix]

Even if it goes against the rules (which I don't believe it does) it makes sense and is not broken

It gives you a single attack at full BAB against every opponent that becomes adjacent to you as you move by them without provoking AoO's as long as you move 5' between each attack.

My tookus if that's not absurd.

The great limiting factor of WWA is that you have to stay in one place to strike multiple foes with your highest attack bonus... combining this with Dervish Dance removes this very important limitation.

Never heard of a whirlwind (tornado) that stood still...

He doesn't have to... Dervish Dance on round one into a host of enemies, and then WWA all of them on round two (not moving save for a 5' step), then move on to the next cluster of enemies with Dervish Dance in round three.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The great limiting factor of WWA is that you have to stay in one place to strike multiple foes with your highest attack bonus... combining this with Dervish Dance removes this very important limitation.

Not true. As quoted above (by me, even), you can take a 5' step while whirlwind attacking, in between any two attacks, because it follows all the rules for a full-attack.

It is a bad idea to rule otherwise.

EDIT:

The reason it is a wrongbad idea is that the rules approach is:

1) I take the Full Attack action.
2) I apply the benefits of Dervish dance.

While in this dervish dance, she can take a full attack action (for melee attacks only) and still move up to her speed.

3) I am still taking the Full-Attack action, otherwise I could not apply the benefits of Dervish Dance.

4) I apply the benefits of Whirlwind Attack.

When you use the full attack action...

5) I am still taking the full attack action.

EDIT 2:

Now, if either of these abilities instead said, "As a full-round action, you may ..." then they could not be combined (for the same reason than Manyshot and Shot on the Run can not be combined).

 

[Darthjaye]

It gives you a single attack at full BAB against every opponent that becomes adjacent to you as you move by them without provoking AoO's as long as you move 5' between each attack.

If you mean the Dervish dance you would be incorrect. You would only be able to designate one target to not provoke an AoO from (with your Spring attack feat granted to you eventually by the class) unless you Tumbled successfully past all other targets taking the -10 or moving at half speed and making a standard roll. Of course you could just go ahead and use your mobility and high AC to provoke all those AoO's so your pals can wade in without doing so themselves (provided the targets don't have combat reflexes).
Like I quoted before, I believe a really good build is the Dervish with Monte Cook's AU Unfettered as they both rely on light or no armor and both classes give Dodge Bonus's. So far it's been a nice combo for me. Doesn't hurt that the Unfettered gets a sneak attack dice every four levels either. With the dance you just make sure you move around your target until he's flanked.

 

[Seeten]

This sounds like fun. A lot of fun. I wonder if I ought to take a couple of levels in this for my monk. I can imagine going all dervish and sundering/disarming 10 guys in a turn.

Can I sunder multiple foes weapons in a full attack? Let me check the SRD. It appears I can do a multiple disarm as a full attack dervish dance, the rules on Sunder seem much less clear. However, oh what fun to dance by and relieve everyone of their weapons!