D&D 5E [+] Design & Development: Magic Item Pricing

[Jester David]

11/15/17 is high, even higher than my own estimate, higher than what others like, and higher than just about any suggestion I've seen so far, but it's good to get many varied opinions. My main takeaway here is that you basically agree "+1 swords should not cost a measly 1-2K gold"

Going by the hoard levels of 0-4, 5 to 10, 11 to 16, and 17+ might work. Since that's when the gold pieces are going to transition.
You're going be getting more money at 11 and 17 than the prior levels, but not really at 15. (14 would be better, being the midpoint between 11 and 17.)

 

[CapnZapp]

Going by the hoard levels of 0-4, 5 to 10, 11 to 16, and 17+ might work. Since that's when the gold pieces are going to transition.
You're going be getting more money at 11 and 17 than the prior levels, but not really at 15. (14 would be better, being the midpoint between 11 and 17.)

Do note that it is the monster's Challenge Rating that sets the hoard and not your own level.

Thus the shift between tiers isn't as abrupt as you might think, since you might win a tier III haul already at level 9, say. (A level 9 party defeating a CR 12 dragon for instance). So the probability of a "next tier hoard" (which is worth approximately ten times as much) steadily increases for each level...

Any given group is of course going to experience some fairly wild spike and lows. One level they just defeat elementals with zero loot, perhaps. The next they take down two major loot-hoarding monsters or organisations. But that just mean they're short on cash during the first level and so they skip the visit to the town shoppe. Then, one level later, they return flush with cash.

One group is greedy and likes to take on hard fights, so they gain comparatively more "higher tier" hoards (but maybe also roll up more new characters). Another group is cautious, and never gets to experience a "higher tier" hoard. One group is "ahead of the curve", the other perhaps "behind" it. But on average? Well... I wouldn't worry about it. It all evens out in the end. For the cautious group, any level 15 item becomes a level 16 item. No real harm done.

We have to assume the wealth accumulation is fairly smooth on average, and that no single level is special. Anything else and we just pile on to our worries for very little gain.

Zapp

PS. Blog of Holding does make an intriguing suggestion. Any hoard at the "upper half" of its tier has its gold doubled. This helps smooth the curve even further.

As to why this was suggested, here's again the link: http://blogofholding.com/?p=6760

 

[Jester David]

Do note that it is the monster's Challenge Rating that sets the hoard and not your own level.

Thus the shift between tiers isn't as abrupt as you might think, since you might win a tier III haul already at level 9, say. (A level 9 party defeating a CR 12 dragon for instance). So the probability of a "next tier hoard" (which is worth approximately ten times as much) steadily increases for each level...

Any given group is of course going to experience some fairly wild spike and lows. One level they just defeat elementals with zero loot, perhaps. The next they take down two major loot-hoarding monsters or organisations. But that just mean they're short on cash during the first level and so they skip the visit to the town shoppe. Then, one level later, they return flush with cash.

One group is greedy and likes to take on hard fights, so they gain comparatively more "higher tier" hoards (but maybe also roll up more new characters). Another group is cautious, and never gets to experience a "higher tier" hoard. One group is "ahead of the curve", the other perhaps "behind" it. But on average? Well... I wouldn't worry about it. It all evens out in the end. For the cautious group, any level 15 item becomes a level 16 item. No real harm done.

We have to assume the wealth accumulation is fairly smooth on average, and that no single level is special. Anything else and we just pile on to our worries for very little gain.

Yeah. And a level 9 group fighting a CR 12 dragon will get a better hoard than that same group fighting a gang of four CR 3 monsters. But, as you say, it's better to assume smooth growth and treasure hoards at your level.

But the point was 11 & 17 have a basis in the game but the "15" was arbitrary. 14 would be better being halfway between 11 and 17.
Or 5/11/17 as the main level tiers of items with sub-tiers at 8 & 14 (in the middle of 5-10 and 11 to 16)

 

[Jester David]

Combining level tiers with rarity might give a better baseline power.
The item's tier (5/8/11/14/17) sets their base price, which is modified by their rarity or if they're consumable. Which is then fine tuned.
A little like the 4e Essentials treasure system that combined level with rarity.

 

[Kinematics]

I've gotten so used to using good forums, that I forgot that I really need to only write posts in a separate editor, and then paste them in when using forums that have more lackluster software.

So my big long analysis post was lost, but I still have a few data points.

Had to recalculate the numbers provided in the blog CapnZapp mentioned. There were a couple minor errors, but they were close enough.

The numbers provided in the blog were the per-hoard coin/gem/art value. It does not include average magic item asset value. I do not know whether you want to include magic item assets in total player wealth, but since a large percentage of such rewards are consumable items (at least in the early levels), and thus considered disposable assets, I'll ignore them.

~~~

Average hoard value at 0-4: 375 gp

Expected number of hoards rolled while leveling from 1-4: 7

Average gain per character in a party of 4: 656 gp

Average gain per character per level: 164 gp

Average expected wealth per character at the end of level 4 (not counting any spending): 656 gp


Average hoard value at 5-10: 4,545 gp

Expected number of hoards rolled while leveling from 5-10: 18

Average gain per character in a party of 4: 20,453 gp

Average gain per character per level: 3,409 gp

Average expected wealth per character at the end of level 10 (not counting any spending): 21,109 gp


Average hoard value at 11-16: 36,385 gp

Expected number of hoards rolled while leveling from 11-16: 12

Average gain per character in a party of 4: 109,155 gp

Average gain per character per level: 18,193 gp

Average expected wealth per character at the end of level 16 (not counting any spending): 130,264 gp


Average hoard value at 17+: 337,963 gp

Expected number of hoards rolled while leveling from 17-20: 8

Average gain per character in a party of 4: 675,926 gp

Average gain per character per level: 168,983 gp

Average expected wealth per character at the end of level 20 (not counting any spending): 806,190 gp

~~~

From this, I would baseline a longsword +1 (not a greatsword) at at least 1000 gp. If you don't spend any money on anything else while leveling up, and spend all of your money on this purchase, you can afford it shortly into 5th level.

If you want to delay the rate characters acquire items, you could upscale the baseline value to 2000 or 3000 gp. So a character should be able to afford it by level 6, but will have a hard time getting it during level 5.

Meanwhile, if you've purchased three items of that price level, you'll have spent maybe half your total accumulated wealth, and will be working from 12k gp when you hit level 11.


Now, supposing the +1 is 3000, if the +2 is 4x that amount (based on the 3E numbers), it will cost 12,000 gp — almost exactly all their remaining wealth.

Even with a fair bit of spending between 11 and 16, a character is likely to have at least 50k gp left by the time they hit 17. That also is conveniently the amount that could be used to buy a +3 sword that is 4x as expensive as the +2: 12k*4 = 48k gp.

Wealth gains after that easily reach into the range of going for legendary items, and will be ignored for these purposes.


So the baselines look like:
Longsword +1 = 3000 gp
Longsword +2 = 12000 gp
Longsword +3 = 48000 gp

That makes it reasonable to acquire at the various threshold levels (5, 11, 17) if you dedicate almost all your remaining wealth to it, while also expecting to gain enough wealth in the following levels to repeat a similar purchase several times.

Obviously scale this relative to the actual amount of treasure being given out in the game.


If I were to extrapolate further, I'd work from:

Weapons:
- I'd scale relative to the damage die of the weapon, compared to the 1d10 of the Longsword:
-- 1d4 dagger +1 = 1200 gp
-- 1d6 shortsword +1 = 1800 gp
-- 1d8 rapier +1 = 2400 gp
-- 2d6 greatsword +1 = 3600 gp

(Finesse and ranged weapons might need a higher multiplier. Maybe 1.5x?)

Light armor:
- Leather can get +1 at the same tier as Longsword +1. (Costs around 3000)
- Leather +2 and Studded Leather +1 come in at Longsword +2 tier.

(This basically means light armor can reach Mage Armor equivalent at about level 11. Is this reasonable? Should Leather +2/Studded Leather +1 come online around level 5?)

Medium armor:
- Breastplate can get +1 at Longsword +2 tier.
- Half Plate gets +1 at Longsword +2 tier, but costs 2x as much. (~24,000)

Heavy armor:
- Ring Mail, Chain Mail, and Split can all get +1 around Longsword +2 tier.
- Plate gets +1 at Longsword +2 tier, but costs 3x as much. (~36,000)

Shield:
- Shield can get +1 at Longsword +2, but costs 2x as much. (~24,000)


The next tier up keeps the same multipliers vs the Longsword +3.

Main idea for this scaling is that we use the same baseline as the Longsword +1/+2/+3, as characters might be expected to spend money on for 3 to 5 similar items over the next leveling tier, while leaving enough to make the jump to the next higher tier on their main purchase when they reach that level.

Relative to per-level wealth, tier 5-10 would be expected to gain enough gold to buy 1 new major item per level. Tier 11-16 could afford 1.5 items per level. Tier 17+ could afford 3 items per level. You're far more likely to run into attunement slot limits than major money limits, but at the same time you're encouraging spending most of that gold.

For armor/shield stacking, I put a multiplier on the highest cost armors for each tier, and the shield, as those are the ones that threaten bounded accuracy. A +1 version of AC17 armor is just NQ full plate, though it might still be useful because of strength limits or similar.

Someone aiming for a +1 Plate & +1 Shield setup might be able to afford it by the end of level 13, roughly midway along that tier. It's pushing the edge of bounded accuracy, but at level 13, a character or enemy could have a +10 to hit, so you're still just looking at rolling a 12 or higher; very similar to any other levels.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Ah. Well, then I think we have different assumptions. My assumption is that the +1 weapon is the baseline magic weapon. I consider +0 weapons (such as vicious or sharp weapons) to be less common offshoots. Basically, a +0 weapon isn't a category of itself, it's basically a +1 weapon with a weird special ability replacing the +1 bonus.

The "+0 weapons" I mentioned in my initial post are based on having no properties other than allowing the weapon user to penetrate magical resistance/immunity.
If you're starting with +1 (or equivalent power enchantment) weapons then you will have to compromise between true utility, and class balance in the party when assigning levels.
The power (utility) of the magic and +1 to hit and damage over and above everything else is high. However you will probably have to set a level/price considerably lower than their actual utility if you want the group to be able to face a standard range of threats appropriate to their level.

Not that it matters much, but if we are initially gonna put a price on a generic "+1 weapon" that needs to be for a best-in-class weapon type. You always take extremes into account for successful balancing.

True utility requires you not to have a single price for a generic weapon. Suboptimal weapons that even with a bonus to hit and damage won't be used as a primary weapon have less power and utility than a weapon like a longsword that will be used for the majority of attacks that the character makes. Furthermore, since we are assuming most optimal usage of items, weapons that can be optimised more than the standard longsword are required to be more expensive/less available.

I can understand the viewpoint that a glaive or hand crossbow is a weird strange and rare weapon. But that's relevant only for the regular nonmagical price discussion.

I don't think I can justify a +1 glaive or +1 hand crossbow costing significantly more than a +1 greatsword, say.

Nothing to do with weird/strange.
Everything to do with easy access to additional attacks from bonus actions and/or reactions. Thus the magical bonus of a polearm or handcrossbow has greater utility than that of a greatsword, because it will be applied more often per round, and therefore under a true utility system must be priced higher.
+Bonus heavy or ranged weapons have additional utility since the +1 offsets the GWM/sharpshooter penalty to hit.
Under the assumptions of a true utility system that you have initially set out, it would be hard to justify not taking the base properties into account, just like you do with armour.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

PS. Blog of Holding does make an intriguing suggestion. Any hoard at the "upper half" of its tier has its gold doubled. This helps smooth the curve even further.

As to why this was suggested, here's again the link: http://blogofholding.com/?p=6760

Note that Blog of Holding also advises to skip monetary awards for hoards at CR 17 and above, bacause the amounts go through the roof at that point.

Edit: Or was that only for using GP = XP?

 

[CapnZapp]

Note that Blog of Holding also advises to skip monetary awards for hoards at CR 17 and above, bacause the amounts go through the roof at that point.

Edit: Or was that only for using GP = XP?

It's basically "only" for... pretty much ANY campaign where gold has actual value

In Blog's example gold gives xp, and so is very valuable.

In our case, gold gives items, and so it is... much less valuable, but still very valuable.

Using the rules as written... well, I guess another hundred grand doesn't make much of a difference, so you can keep the hauls as is...?

 

[CapnZapp]

The "+0 weapons" I mentioned in my initial post are based on having no properties other than allowing the weapon user to penetrate magical resistance/immunity.
If you're starting with +1 (or equivalent power enchantment) weapons then you will have to compromise between true utility, and class balance in the party when assigning levels.
The power (utility) of the magic and +1 to hit and damage over and above everything else is high. However you will probably have to set a level/price considerably lower than their actual utility if you want the group to be able to face a standard range of threats appropriate to their level.

Not sure I follow you.

It seems you somehow have already made up a new category of "+0 weapons" and added that mentally, and now you're laying out all the kinds of problems I will get if I remove this "+0" category? Isn't that kind of backwards? Or am I failing basic comprehension?

I'm not starting with anything. The game provides us with +1 weapons. Our task is to discuss at what approximate level an average hero should be able to afford it.

Let's get constructive here, leaving aside my confusion for a moment. My take is "after a couple of run-ins with resistant critters, but not too many". If we can agree this happens at around level 6, then we have something to base further discussion on.

Why I would be compromising "true utility" by doing this? Are you maybe saying that by a strict utilitarian view this weapon should be available so late that fighter classes feel left out?

If so, maybe you're thinking of reverse-engineering the "proper" point for a +1 weapon from some theoretical standpoint (such as Magic Weapon the spell)? But please put such considerations on the back burner.

The main component in deciding when magic weapons should come online must surely be the practical viewpoint - the increasing frequency of damage resistant monsters?

From a player character's viewpoint. The cost should be just expensive enough that it isn't a completely obvious choice, given the utility (or at least soon to come utility).

Remember, my aim here is to create a highly 5th edition specific playing experience. The feeling of visiting the Magic Mart should not be that it somehow gated in from 3rd edition. The prices need to be in synch with everything else about this edition.

I think I'd better stop here. I'll return to the rest of the quote once I grok your post better.

regards

 

[Eltab]

(written after reading only the first page)

Do we presume the PCs will be making the magic items themselves?
Can PCs instead "commission" a magic item from a professional crafter?
Do all the professional crafters already belong to / work for some organization that has them too busy with their current work to do any other jobs?
Can the PCs collect enough money that a professional can drop working on all the neat magi-tech toys the nobility pays so well for, to make that magic armor and a Holy Avenger? (And how long will it take?)

All of these answers will affect the eventual pricing of magic items - especially custom-made gear commissioned by the PCs for their own use.