Design & Development: The Warlock

[Rechan]

And if there is a tragedy in which a kid commits suicide or commits a school shooting and a Player's Handbook is found in the kids bedroom, the tragedy will be depicted as D&D's fault. I'm not saying the claim would be true but how the media would say it to make a story.

Hate to break it to you, but during the DC Sniper, the supposed profile of the shooter had him playing D&D because it facilitates violent fantasies.

What you describe is still possible and likely even if the Warlock and Tiefling weren't a part of teh PHB. Because D&D is all about breaking, entering and murder (Rogue), unrepentant and savage violence (Fighter, barbarian), worshiping imaginary entities for magic (Clerics). The game revolves around killing people and taking their things. In the eyes of the people that say "D&D is bad", whether you kill people when your class is Warlock or Wizard doesn't matter to them.

And just like people sue gun makers because of a shooting or sue McDonalds because fast food made them fat, I see lawsuits coming against WotC because D&D made their kid suicidal.

So, has anyone ever sued Marilyn Manson or video game makers for suicidal teens?

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

I can see where some of the concern is coming from regarding the flavor of "pact-making" and the overall devilish/demonic implications of this edition. Ever since we've known about Points of Light, it's been obvious that WotC was going for something much darker and grittier this edition. That isn't going to fly for everyone. Luckily the flavor is so generic that it can be ignored, but I'm starting to see why the general philosophy might make folks uncomfortable.

As it concerns the warlock specifically, I don't think the problem is insurmountable. The somewhat questionable nature of achieving their powers does not necessarily require a sociopathic and sadistic personality. Obviously if you're making pacts with devils and demons, chances are you are Neutral at best. But with regards to Feral and Shadow pacts, there are strong arguments going the other way. A Bruce Wayne/Batman type personality comes to mind immediately, where a warlock might use the horrifying powers of the Shadowfell to put an end to corruption and evil. While this probably isn't the guy you'd invite over for biscuits, that in no way makes him Evil.

Even someone who has pact with a malevolent outsider is not necessarily a bloodthirsty power-monger. Perhaps someone was forced into the pact. "Bind yourself to the demon Rashagol or your girlfriend gets it!" That kind of thing. There are a lot of possibilities for the character, no matter what kind of pact a player chooses.

I'm sad to see the Sorcerer go, but I think the warlock will make a solid replacement, at least for now. Eventually I'd like to see the Sorcerer make its way back into the game.

 

[SteveC]

After taking a look at this, I'm going to seriously suggest that WotC take a look at the Warlock and tone down some of these abilities and take a look at the flavor behind it.

Is it because I'm scared of "dark" things? Not in the least. The reason for it is because we're only going to have a relatively small number of classes available in the core, and presumably in the SRD, and a class like this is simply not going to be as useful for games as some of the others that are getting moved to supplements.

Like it or not, the majority of D&D campaigns are heroic in nature, and the warlocks flavor (and some of the crunch) clashes with that. If you take a look at Organized Play in the RPGA (arguably one of the largest groups of gamers around) evil characters are banned, and evil actions are a quick ticket to having your character turned into an NPC.

I don't think it would be very hard to adjust the flavor of the class that much.

Now I'm not trying to say that any particular kind of campaign is bad, or that playing a warlock isn't a good thing, only that we have such a small number of "core at launch" classes, that do we really want to include one that is of questionable utility for many groups?

--Steve

 

[Sir Brennen]

Like it or not, the majority of D&D campaigns are heroic in nature, and the warlocks flavor (and some of the crunch) clashes with that.

How do you know this? We haven't actually seen any of the crunch, and only a brief, incomplete summary of the flavor. The warlock class description in the upcoming PHB is going to be a few pages long. We still don't know how they're completely envisioned as a standard class.

 

[howandwhy99]

I expect he was referring to the designers...

Yeah. I'm getting the feeling they don't playtest out of combat consequences to the rule changes.

 

[useridunavailable]

Personally, I like it. Enduring effectiveness notwithstanding, I always found the 3.5 Warlock a bit below the power curve. Yeah, there were a few decent incantations, and the Eldritch Blast did okay damage (better with a few items from the MIC), but in terms of "kill it before it kills you" knockout power, I found it essentially unplayable in our group. If a character isn't truly devastating with our player base, it won't be able to stand up against multiple monsters 4-5 CR above our party level (the "before breakfast" encounter standard) like the rest of the party can. The guy walking around with the ranged joy buzzer just wasn't going to cut it. However, this view changed quite a bit with the release of Complete Mage, which really gave the Warlock a lot more options. Eldritch Theurge? He can zap a creature with his Eldritch Blast and then have a Fireball explode on the point of impact? Now that's cool! I'll bet they give the 4e Lock some neat options like that--otherwise, he'll just get stale.

Also, for those who are concerned about the dark flavor of the Warlock, I encourage you to take a look at the Enlightened Spirit from Complete Mage It's kind of like a Warlock/Paladin hybrid who rejects the dark forces from whence its powers originated and gets some really cool stuff from the forces of good. Also, perhaps the Feywild pact could be with some type of Eladrin? The term "pact" doesn't necessarily have a nefarious connotation...

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think you're taking Heinsoo's writing a little too literally there. The "in more pieces" part is just meant, I think, to indicate that the enemy takes a lot of damage from being in hell for a round.

You know what would be nice? If people would take the previews and interpret them in a way that renders an internally-consistent explanation. If you are faced with interpretation A, which makes sense (like Gloombunny's here) and interpretation B, which doesn't, choose A.

If they say they're trying to avoid save-or-die effects, and they post something that may or may not be a save-or-die effect, the logical interpretation is that it's not a save-or-die effect.

 

[SteveC]

How do you know this? We haven't actually seen any of the crunch, and only a brief, incomplete summary of the flavor. The warlock class description in the upcoming PHB is going to be a few pages long. We still don't know how they're completely envisioned as a standard class.

We don't. Ultimately we don't know anything about what the final class will be, so you may consider this preemptive griping, which has been known to have real effects. But for right now, I only know what I've read.

--Steve

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yeah, I edited my response above, as it could derail this.

My point was I'm probably going to be okay with all this in the end, especially with the shadow and feral options.

Thank you for retracting. Two bans later, it's clear why discussion of religion on these boards is prohibited.

 

[Belen]

I think that this may cause me to seriously debate whether I buy the new books. I do not allow evil characters in my game. It is not the flavor I enjoy and it has only caused issues for me in the past. I dislike having an evil-aligned character class in the PHB and I think it will only serve to further make life difficult for GMs as they can now not even be able to say core only. I do not like the fact that I would have to restrict classes and races from the PHB at the start.

Sad news.