Design & Development: The Warlock

[Zaruthustran]

list of characters, and a well-written overview of their history/motivations

I listed those specific guys because they're popular "anti-heroes", not because I think they're evil. Solo, Bauer, Bond are lawbreakers. Or at least, benders. Fett is not, strictly speaking, a hero. Not in the movies, anyway. But he is crazy, wildly popular. And Lestat is definitely in the "protagonist" category.

The Spawn example is exactly how I think 99% of Warlock players will portray their relationship with their character's patron. Antagonistic. Glad for their powers, but with remorse and mistrust when it comes to the source. I imagine many campaigns will feature a plot arc where the warlock confronts and destroys his patron, and in so doing deprives himself of his powers forever. Perhaps the patron's other warlocks (whether good, evil, or neutral) will try to prevent him from doing so.

My point is that many consumers *like* heroes with a dark side. The Warlock class seems designed to specifically cater to that kind of consumer.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Wolverine isn't necessarily anti-team. He goes off on his own, sure, but he's not adverse to teamwork. Batman often has a partner, and has always been a member of the Justice League.

Anti-Heroes can play well with others. Loyalty or protectiveness to a choice few while ruthless to everyone else comes to mind.

But ultimately, it depends on your game. If all your adventure is is just "Go in there to get the treasure" or "Go kill the dragon" with no personal hook keyed to the PCs, then it doesn't matter who or what they are. And if one of your players makes characters that doesn't play well with others, then that's the player's problem. D&D is a group game, and he has to have a reason to stick with the group. Being dark doesn't preclude that.

IIRC, there is a section in PHBII on just this issue, pertaining to the hexblade, another Dark-Dark-Darky-DARK-Dark character.

 

[Imaro]

I just thought of something.

Okay, perhaps the Warlock for the Devils is "I give you power in exchange for souls."

But for the others, you might just be "looting" something else of your kill.

The Shadow-powered warlock, maybe he's not collecting souls, but instead, "In exchange for this power, I need you to steal shadows. So as you go about killing monsters and villains... steal their shadow for me. That shadow goes to me, and I grow stronger, as that shadow is the umbral version of their power; I gain a little power from the enemy you slay."

For the Feral (assuming it goes to the Fey), "Give me the dreams of your foes. I wish to revel in their dreams." Or if Feral is more instinctive, "Give me their drives, their desires, their hungers, their passions. Feed me the emotions of your victims."

It's not necessarily Evil, and you're not giving the SOUL of your target, but you are taking some of that target's POWER and sending it back to your pact-giver. That shadow isn't important to someone who's dead, but the latent energy that was tied to them can be useful for something else.

Sort've like eating your enemy to gain their strength - you don't eat their soul, you eat the part of them that had the power you wanted, improving your own by absorbing their strength.

And ultimately it's little different than looting the corpse. The issue of "You took his soul" is that "The soul is now in possession of something else, as opposed to its intended destination had you not intervened".

Uhm assuming the "points of light" setting...I would have to say yes you are evil. You're empowering beings that wish ill-will upon humanity in general. If each time you devote these things to those beings they grow stronger, you are ultimately a part of the darkness trying to engulf the points of light.

Once again Elric (the most classic example of this type of character) forsakes the power Arioch gives him and rebels against the Chaos Lord, this is what makes him a hero. So unless a character forsakes his pact (then what's the point of being a warlock) yes he is evil.

I really don't see the need for a specific character like this. You want to play the angst ridden, emo, eye shadow wearin, walker in darkness...play a tiefling sorcerer whose power arose through his infernal blood, but why base a character class on this type of thing. Leave it to background and a general class (like the sorcerer) whose powers are generic enough to be explained in numerous ways.

 

[Paraxis]

Seriously, I don't see why making a deal--any deal--with a devil is Evil. If a character makes the deal, "I'll give you a copper piece if you rescue those babies from the orphanage fire", then that is an Evil act.

Huh. Why?

Getting back to the warlock, he makes a pact with a Evil outer planer being. (Ok I will concead that maybe only 1/3 of them do).

The act of making a pact where you trade something of importance to a Demonic being (they don't want just a copper) to get something else is evil. The children need to be saved some other way, because well the Demonic being is only going to make a pact that he gains the most from. Whatever you gave him or do for him is going to be Evil.

So yes knowingly dealing with outerplaner Evil creatures is an Evil act. One in most cases would probably envolve the transaction of a soul (currency of most of these creatures in fiction), yes Evil.

We are not talking about normal mortal evil, it's not refusing the mass murderers help in helping a bunch of orphans in a fire. It's refusing the aid of a Demonic power.

I love messing with Paladin's by putting them is just such situations, either try your hardest in saving as many kids as you can without help, not many.
Sell your soul or atleast take the first leap down the path of darkness, by accepting help from the Demonic power and fall from grace, but save all the kids.

Saving the kids is good, but selling your soul is still evil.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I really don't see the need for a specific character like this. You want to play the angst ridden, emo, eye shadow wearin, walker in darkness...play a tiefling sorcerer whose power arose through his infernal blood, but why base a character class on this type of thing. Leave it to background and a general class (like the sorcerer) whose powers are generic enough to be explained in numerous ways.

What I love about this post is the sig graphic below it.

MY COLOR IS BLACK
I value power, ambition, and darkness. I love power at any cost, and am a corrupting influence on those around me. At my best, I am resourceful and unashamed. At my worst, I am parasitic and amoral. My symbol is a skull.

Ell oh ell.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I love messing with Paladin's by putting them is just such situations, either try your hardest in saving as many kids as you can without help, not many.
Sell your soul or atleast take the first leap down the path of darkness, by accepting help from the Demonic power and fall from grace, but save all the kids.

Saving the kids is good, but selling your soul is still evil.

Refusing a demon's help and letting a bunch of kids burn because you're too proud to fall from grace?

Heck, now THAT is Evil.

 

[Lackhand]

Paraxis: What about my Roy-the-Warlock example, in which we postulate that someone's in this bind not of their own choice?

edit: Zaruthustran You can have no conception of the can of worms you just opened. Might want to edit.

 

[Imaro]

What I love about this post is the sig graphic below it.



Ell oh ell.

Hey, I'm black...couldn't find any cool black fantasy art for an avatar, so I went with a black skull. The test is pretty easy to manipulate.

 

[Rechan]

You're empowering beings that wish ill-will upon humanity in general. If each time you devote these things to those beings they grow stronger, you are ultimately a part of the darkness trying to engulf the points of light.

Um, who says that shadow is evil? Shadow is just that: Darkness. There is no morality with regards to the absence or presence of light.

And how is it that darkness or fey are, by nature, ill-will upon humanity? Adventurers kill things. They often kill them for money. That's ill-will upon humanity, AND it furthers the goals of gods of slaughter, murder, and greed. OMG PCS = EVIL.

 

[Zamkaizer]

Wrong. 100% wrong. Characters gain xp, and thereby levels, by overcoming challenges. Traps are challenges. Puzzles are challenges. Role-playing awards are too. It's entirely possible to use non-lethal damage to overcome those goblins and get to the next level.

Right. Killing things is only the PRIMARY way in which characters get stronger.

Han Solo didn't get to be an ace pilot and crack shot by making a deal with a supernaturally evil power.

Of course Han Solo didn't get his abilities from a supernaturally evil power. He only got the financing to pay for the tools through which he applies his abilities from vanilla evil powers. Unless you think gun-running and drug-smuggling are noble purposes.

Yes, he knowingly and willfully makes a deal with an Infernal power so he is commiting an evil act. The L.G sheriff would probably not deputize him, because revenge killing is not inheritnly Good, but if he did it is different because the sheriff is not an extraplaner EVIL.

I'll inform Webster that, "misguided but well-meaning," is now a definition of evil. Also, just because someone commits an evil act, it does not follow that they are evil.