D&D General Design issues with 5e

I think hit point bloat is one of the original sins of 5e, and sadly undermines the bounded accuracy which is one of my favorite design intentions of 5e. Yes, it feels cool to graduate to more advanced enemies, but it doesn't serve the simulationist side of things well. And since 5e doesn't want to come right out and do the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tier versions of every enemy (most of the time) it means lots of casting about for what enemy types to use by the DM only to find that "nope, we'll have to save that for 10 levels down the line" or whatever.
I think HP bloat is actually the result of bounded accuracy. How do you make that Ancient Dragon tougher without massively increasing it's AC beyond the bounds? Give it more HP.

Skills I think also suffer from bounded accuracy's inclusion. Here is a possible "solution" that I would like some feedback on: Skills used out of combat are rolled on 2d10. This is a "peakier" result distribution, that makes smaller bonuses worth more. I do still like having the d20 for in combat uses, because I think that, under pressure, experts can crack and novices can surprise themselves.
 

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I prefer the 5E skill system to 3E. The problem with the 3E skill system is that it was quite complicated, particularly with skill synergies, and there were a bunch of crap skills that were very situational and should be mostly avoided. 5E has a simpler skill system, with better consolidated skills, albeit still some skills that are seldom of use.

Edit: As noted by GrimCo, cross-class skills sucked in 3E. I really like that there is no skill niche protection now, though some classes may get expertise or other advantages on certain skills. The big benefit is that it allows for a more mixed party, where say the Dwarven Fighter could be the one who checks for traps and picks locks.
 
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What did you not like about 3.5 skills?
Skill list is too big. Class/cross class cost difference, various bonuses ( feats, magic items, spells, racial, synergy, tools, circumstances, class ability ). Some are temporary, some are conditional. It's all clunky.
You can, via the Skilled feat, and some classes or subclasses grant skills here and there as part of class abilities beyond level 1. But I agree that it’s pretty limited. Burning a feat on Skilled feels like a waste of a resource that’s already too limited.
Limited and conditional. Also, feats are optional in 5e14 rules, and like you said, even if you play with feats, burning feat for getting skills is usually bad trade off.
In 3.5, you could grow your skill ranks at each level, and either keep honing the same skills further, or branch into new ones.
Yup.
That too was the way you want it, in 3.5… skill ranks gained from levels far outweighed the bonuses coming from abilities.

So I am really puzzled by the opening statement 😅 … do you mean that 5e is more elegant simply by virtue of containing fewer skills than 3.5? … even though 3.5 had the characteristics you’re actually looking for 😄 ?
More elegant by shorter skill list, removing bunch of bonuses ( and replacing them with either advantage or with added dice to roll).

Conceptually, i like 3ed skills. Ideal system, for me, would be skill points. No racial, background or class proficiency. Full list available for all characters. Class gives you number of skill points, max you can put in one skill is level*3. Background or race can give adv to skill checks. Class features need to be more interesting, say like giving you option to take 10 or add extra dice or something. Spells also, it's adv on check or extra dice.

As long time rogue fan, 5e killed rogue for me at what it did best - being skill monkey, but at the same time, it didn't get major buffs (unlike bard that became arguably best class overall).
 

3) Concentration: Likely my biggest issue with 5e. The concept of concentration is great, its just too all encompassing. They crammed too much into one mechanic.
Concentration should go back to being a skill you had to learn whenever you found yourself in a situation that required your full attention. Ex. Casting and maintaining a spell or psionic power.
 

I love 5e -- it has a lot going for it as a player and as a DM. But the other thread anticipating 6e got me thinking seriously about what design aspects of 5e are actually problems.

So I felt like posting this thought exercise : if I were the lead designer, and not concerned with consensus or backwards compatibility, what would I consider needs changing to improve the game?

1. Not enough distinctiveness in the player experiences offered by the classes. Too much reliance on spells instead of giving each class unique ways to interact with the game and world. Too much overlap in spell lists. Hunter's mark never needed to be a spell, it could have been a skill-based ability triggered by stalking and studying an enemy. Weapon mastery and maneuvers could have been given to fighters only. And so on! I would redesign every core class to make its abilities serve a specific and unique play experience and trajectory, as much as possible.
Spells are just codified abilities not connected to classes or feats. Once you see spells as abilities that are magic, you understand that they offer a lot of effective use for many usecases. Making 10 different versions of some ability that works like a spell just uses a lot more page space and bloats the game. It is easier for players to all use the same spell, and easier for DM's to adjudicate the effect if they all work the same way.

Sure, some things could be made non-magical, but for a ranger the limiting resource was chosen to be spell slots. It's elegant design. That way players don't have to track multiple resources. (Yes I am aware there are classes that have more resources alongside spell slots.)

Understand that similar to spells, weapon masteries, fighting styles, feats and the like all give players consistency. That way players can change class without having to re-learn the game.

By all means, create your own version of the game, but it is important to understand why they didn't give every class a different way to make attacks and cast spells.
2. Add back choice and consequences in PC design. It is ok for a species to give an ability score penalty. It is ok if you pick a class ability from a menu that is locked in at least for a whole level, not changeable every long rest. Itbis more than ok if dumping strength cripples you in melee and spending your two high scores is an interesting choice but not an obvious one. The game is more interesting because the PCs have strengths and weaknesses, and need to rely on one another.
A very unpopular, old style kind of design. I would agree that "dumping" certain stats should have more consequences, but I don't see why we should go back to giving penalties. I would love to see better design in the core stats, so that Strength, Intelligence and Charisma have more use.
3. Surprise needs to be dangerous. If it is practically consequence-free, then you've removed one of the major functions of the exploration pillar.
We've been there, it was too swingy to be fun so they did it the new way. I think you can still use the old way if you prefer that, but I think as a game, the 5.5e way is better.
4. Beef up exploration. A solid chapter in the DMG with many examples of exploration/survival challenges. Cover dungeon, wilderness, and urban exploration. Explainnhow to run them with skills, new subsystems or both, and how some class abilities can change the nature of these challenges without avoiding them altogether. For example, maybe when a ranger fails a tracking roll, they get a "no AND" result instead of a simple no. It is OK if some classes can access tasks that others can't, or obtain unique results.
Exploration should still be optional, but I would also like more guidance on this. No new subsystems please, that would bog things down. There's Uncharted Journeys if you are into that, I heard it's good. I use their random encounters a lot, and they really make the game better. I already have what I need, but I think the core game could do with a large amount of tables full of varied random encounters.
5. Cut down on the number of abilities acquired at higher levels. It's better to upgrade an ability, especially if it is already one if the class' core and mechanically unique ones.
Hmm, maybe. I am not opposed to this, but in many cases improving an ability means you add abilities and uses anyway. Scaling isn't an upgrade IMO.

Cool ideas! I think it would help if you thought about what the new problems could be. I think you could have a lot of fun with your 6e.

As for my changes:
  1. Ability scores are gone, only modifiers remain
  2. Modifiers are unaffected by background or species
  3. The usage of hands for spells, actions and the like is vastly simplified
  4. Merge some conditions
  5. Cut 30% of all spells, especially complicated ones
  6. Nerf the shield spell
  7. Add a very simple inventory system
  8. Weapons are simplified into categories instead of per weapon type (simple light, martial light, simple 2-handed, etc.)
 

I feel 4e did a form of bounded accuracy better than 5e does.

It's a simple...take your level and divide by 2 and you have your bonus.

This marks for a massive difference between someone who is 20th level, is extremely simple math and extremely easy to remember.

The way 5e does it is not really that intuitive and you only have a span of 4 points between level 1 and level 20.

Just my thoughts.
best way to play 4E is to drop +1/2 level bonus to everything.
inflation is super high.

One of the best things of 5E was to curbstomp number inflation.
 


I don't really care about older editions, since they just had different math.

Is "HP Bloat" an actual problem? PCs deal more and more damage, does the HP outscale their output? And is it really more fun if PCs have their abilities and attacks fail more, instead of the monsters weathering more damage?
 


The game is more interesting because the PCs have strengths and weaknesses, and need to rely on one another.
so build yourself a fighter with 10 STR. Its easy doable, no need for maluses by species.

I definitely agree with more distinct class feel. Completely redone skill system. No HP bloat. This would be my main wishes. Beefing up exploration sounds also great, and DMG that put exploration procedures in focus and not spread them over multiple chapters and books. Also explicitly state some procedures like dungeon turns instead of assuming tacit knowledge.

Action system is also bad IMO. I hate bonus actions.
 

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