D&D 5E Desired Spell Changes

[Jeff Carlsen]

Instead of nitpicking which spell belongs at what level, I wonder why we even have spell levels at all?

I think that D&DN should eschew spell levels altogether, and instead consolidate spells with similar purposes/effects and scale them from level one on up.

I'd similar to what the OP suggested for Cure Wounds, where the various spell metrics and effects increase automatically as the caster gains levels.

With spell levels gone, and spells retaining value throughout the character's career, you now have simply have X amount of spell slots as opposed to X amounts of slots for y levels spells, and n slots for z level spells. This means that the only practical difference between a vancian system and a mana point system is now when the spells are prepared. Also, this makes 3E style level-by-level multiclassing more viable.

Since there would be less redundancy in the spell list, and spells don't lose value over levels, you can decrease the amount of spell slots allotted to characters from 20+ to about 12-15. This will make higher level characters easier to generate as well as NPC's.

While an interesting idea worthy of discussion, I want to keep this thread focused on spells within the current system. Please feel free to open a new thread to discuss modifications to the system.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I know they're already doing the whole "cast in a higher slot" thing, and that's a great start, but would it be beneficial (and I'm thinking it would be) to combine more spells, balled up into a couple of since there's no real term for what I'm thinking, let's call them "iconic class spells" [tm].

Here's what I'm thinking...
Clerics: Cure Wounds & Bless.
Cure Wounds: For each spell level heals d8 +caster level hp of damage. Cast in a 3rd level slot: Also removes blindness, deafness, paralysis or disease. Cast at a 5th level slot: Also can be used to repair ability damage and energy drain ["Restoration"]. Cast at a 7th tier slot: Auto heals to full for an individual or can be cast en masse [let's say] 5' radius (or 10' diameter, if you prefer) per caster level (which, assuming 5th level spells at 9th level, is a 45'radius or 90' diameter).
Bless: For each spell level offers +1 to hit and saving throws to 1 person per caster level. Cast as a 3rd level slot: Also grants advantage regardless of other conditions/circumstances. Cast as a 5th level slot: Also can be cast to apply to all allies within 5' radius per caster level.

Druids: Control Plants and Control Animals [or summoning or something]
Control Plants: Cast as 1st level slot: Entangle. Cast at 3rd level slot: Also acts as Plant Growth. Cast at 5th level: i dunno. Something uber-super plant-y.
Control Animals: Cast as 1st level: Speak with Animals. Cast at a 2nd level slot: also Charms Animal. Cast at a 3rd level slot: Also acts as Animal summoning/Nature's Ally who is then charmed/obedient. Cast at a 5th level slot: Dominate Animal...etc...

Wizards: Magic Missile and "Mystic Barrier"
Magic Missile: For each spell level used produces 1 bolt, does 6 hp of damage each, automatically hits. At 3rd level slot: 3 bolts, damage 6 hp each, or 30' diameter burst of energy, 18 hp to all within area of effect At 5th level slot: 5 bolts, damage 6 hp each, or 50' conical blast, 30 hp to all within range. etc...
Magic Barrier: Cast 1st level slot: Shield. Cast 3rd level slot: Acts as shield but can be cast as 15' diameter globe. Cast 5th level slot: Globe of Invulnerability (blocking physical and magic attacks)...etc...

Illusionists: Color Spray and Phantasmal Force
Color Spray: 1st level normal. 3rd level slot: increase effect somehow...5th level slot: Prismatic Spray...etc...
Phan Force: normal audio-visual...3rd level slot: major image, visual/auditory/olfactory/infrared, maybe extends without concentration...5th level slot: shadow/pseudo-real image...less or no concentration necessary...etc...

Does this make sense/work...or have I jumped the spellbook?

Personally, I think that would be going too far. I'm all for merging similar spells, but only so long as no hoops have to be jumped through to do it. Otherwise, it's no longer the same magic system.

 

[Squidmaster]

I like a lot of these proposed changes. I wholeheartedly agree with the necessity of changing the fly spell and others like it to higher levels, and I think that invisibility should be included in the list of spells that need to be of a higher level. It's a little ridiculous when the stealth mechanic can be totally bypassed in outdoor environments with a combination of a low-level spell and magic item. That kind of thing shouldn't be possible, at least at low levels.

Perhaps invisibility should work on a sliding scale like many of the spells being proposed here. I'll take a pass at it:

Invisibility
All levels: requires concentration
4th level: lasts one minute
6th level: lasts one hour
8th level: works as mass invisibility

I don't know if the designers intend there to be an invisibility spell that works like the old improved invisibility, but if so, that could be worked into this pretty easily.

 

[Nymrohd]

I have an issue with consolidating many spells in one on a mass level. It would dilute the concept of spells. If there is one cure spell that heals people depending on how high a slot you use, it is no longer a spell, it is a cure effect. Spell slots could just as well be replaced with spell points then.
Moreover the more we consolidate the less important the spells per day limitation becomes and thus the more versatile casters become.
Furthermore we are indirectly penalizing some archetypes against others; the illusion spells are pretty much three or four effects that could indeed be easily consolidated; invisiblity, figment illusion, fear effect that can damage/kill would cover the significant majority of illusions. But can you do the same with fire effects?
Lastly it makes spells as treasure quite more complicated. How much is Squidmaster's invisibility worth? As much as a 4th level spell? An 8th level one? More due to versatility it offers?

 

[Szatany]

If there is one cure spell that heals people depending on how high a slot you use, it is no longer a spell, it is a cure effect.

Was there ever a difference?

It would dilute the concept of spells.

No it wouldn't. Plus spells have been consolidated in most editions in various ways.

Moreover the more we consolidate the less important the spells per day limitation becomes and thus the more versatile casters become.

That is true, but if ever casters were to become too versatile, it's a simple matter of reducing their number of prepared spells.

 

[Nymrohd]

Well yes, I see a difference between a spell and an effect. It is different to say that you manipulate the element of fire and can thus create fire effects than that you know a spell to create a fireball. One is open ended and treats fire manipulation as a skill. The other is a specific piece of knowledge; it can do one thing.

 

[Squidmaster]

I agree that the concept can be taken too far, but for something with a tight focus, it makes a lot of sense to me. On a related note, sometimes I feel like certain classic spells are almost a contrivance, looking to divide up a concept into multiple parts in order to create the illusion of variety. I guess the sweet spot would be somewhere in between.

In other news, I strongly side with those who think that cantrips are a little out of whack right now. In the current iteration of the rules, if I'm a cleric, why on earth would I ever choose to use a weapon when I have a cantrip that will out damage it in the long run plus apply some sort of status effect? I like the idea of offense of cantrips, as long as they do not remove the use of weapons as an option. Even the wizard should have some sort of choice to make here. It's great if the wizard always has some sort of magic to rely upon, but it's equally great if that choice does not make weapons completely irrelevant. Sometimes throwing that dart adds a bit of flavor.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I have an issue with consolidating many spells in one on a mass level. It would dilute the concept of spells. If there is one cure spell that heals people depending on how high a slot you use, it is no longer a spell, it is a cure effect. Spell slots could just as well be replaced with spell points then.
Moreover the more we consolidate the less important the spells per day limitation becomes and thus the more versatile casters become.
Furthermore we are indirectly penalizing some archetypes against others; the illusion spells are pretty much three or four effects that could indeed be easily consolidated; invisiblity, figment illusion, fear effect that can damage/kill would cover the significant majority of illusions. But can you do the same with fire effects?
Lastly it makes spells as treasure quite more complicated. How much is Squidmaster's invisibility worth? As much as a 4th level spell? An 8th level one? More due to versatility it offers?

It can certainly be taken too far. But many spells are clearly variations of other spells. In particular, any spell that is the same as another except for it's damage, number of targets, or area of effect don't make for interesting pieces of lore and only complicate the game.

I think of it as pruning. By cutting away at duplication, the remaining spell list is limited to unique and compelling powers.

 

[Stalker0]

i'm seeing a lot of suggestions about moving spells to higher levels. i don't think that fixes the issue, it just moves it up.

It means that more of the game is played before the wizard goes "super saiyan" but it still happens eventually.

 

[Gorgoroth]

• Aid seems totally unimpressive for 2nd level, could be 1st.
• I would move some transporation spells up a level. Make levitate level 3, fly level 4, air walk level 5 and so on.
• Healing spells should be of necromancy school. If there's a problem with conotations, just rename damn thing to vitamancy or something.
• Fire seeds deals pathetic damage. Beyond useless.
• Harm (and probably other high level spells) tells me to roll 14d6 (!). I don't want to roll that many dice. Make it so I don't have to roll more than 5 or 6. Ever.

Making fly level 4 would go a long way to making wizards dominate less at early levels. Sure, it's only two levels more, but in that time all the other classes get better, so the power of it is lessened. Getting fly, fireball, and lighting bold all at level 3 was a huge bump in power. Yes, let's pump up fly to level 4, levitate at level 3. That way levitate would get a lot more use in play, assuming it takes longer to go up from 5th to 7th than from 3rd to 5th level.