Desperate odds, equalizers, and leaving LotR behind

[Psion]

6.) "Feint and thrust" - Similar to overextension (above), you draw the enemy's forces away from his stronghold, then strike a crippling blow to the stronghold or take it over entirely (#5 above) while he is away.

This has a lot of appeal to me. Sort of a divide and conquer. The villain relies on his henchmen to do a lot of his dirty work, but doesn't entrust (or cannot entrust) his minions with enough power to stop the PCs when he is not around. A quick distraction could dismantle his plans, though if the villain is truly staggering in power, this may not be sufficient to permanently deal with him. Hmmm.

Yes, I know this one has other religious implications and figures that could be substituted for Aslan, but let's just keep it in Narnia, okay?

Galdalf doesn't count?

10.) The "bell around the cat's neck" method - The enemy is using a ritual to gain or maintain power. Some fool must go swap out one of the material mystic components the guy is using without him noticing; this creates an Achilles Heel for later exploitation ("the Death Star shield is down! Go for it!"), robs him of power without him realizing it (e.g., the Biblical Sampson when his hair is first cut), or destroys him instantly when he tries to use the "wrong" item, thinking it to be the right one.

This has a lot of appeal. Instead of the explicit weakness, the characters can try to make a weakness/use trickery. Puts it in a slightly different realm. But sometimes, getting players to seek weaknesses without prodding can be a bit tough.

 

[mseds99]

my idea would to introduce a second evil group into the scenaio and let the party try and pit the two parties against each other. In my campaign, the party only knows of one evil party (church of Bane)and have been dealing withem directly, in the manner which PC's tend to do. They have had great success and they think all the success is due their efforts. They don't realize that the Church of Cyric(bad group #2) has been dropping clues as the existence of bad party one, mostly thorugh the help of a doppleganger doubleagent hired by the Cyric's followers to infililtrate Bane's church. I'm getting a great kick out of it. It should be especially fun when the party leads the army to wipe out the followers of Bane and comes back to find the city(normally an oligarchy) is under martial law and ruled by one person ( a secret worshipper of Cyric and head of its church).

Two evil groups are always better than one. Evil is better because good is dumb!

 

[Swack-Iron]

Eve Forward was the author- iirc.

You are correct, Eve Forward -- daughter of scifi author Dr. Robert L. Forward. She's a friend of mine, and someone I gamed with in college. A lot of the stuff in that book is based on her college gaming experiences, and I find little bits of people and characters I know in some of the characters in that book. It's a fun read!

 

[The Sigil]

Galdalf doesn't count?

Nah, he didn't come back powerful enough to take on Sauron himself. The Nazgûl? Certainly (except their leader). Sauron himself? No.

As to the "feint and thrust"/"divide and conquer" - thanks for the feedback - I especially like the idea that the villain is not able/willing (I prefer unwilling) to send his henchmen out with enough power to do the job... this is where the taunting can come in.

--The Sigil

 

[Xeriar]

Nah, he didn't come back powerful enough to take on Sauron himself. The Nazgûl? Certainly (except their leader). Sauron himself? No.

As to the "feint and thrust"/"divide and conquer" - thanks for the feedback - I especially like the idea that the villain is not able/willing (I prefer unwilling) to send his henchmen out with enough power to do the job... this is where the taunting can come in.

--The Sigil

I thought that the dillema there was that he -could-, as Saruman had intended to do, but just as Saruman fell from grace, so to speak, Gandalf could not meddle with such power and remain pure.

 

[Magus the Purifier]

Never under estimate the power of paranoia. In the Freeport adventure our party got to the point where we couldn't trust anybody. Dopplegangers and Greater Dopplegangers can really mix things up.

 

[Savage Wombat]

You are correct, Eve Forward -- daughter of scifi author Dr. Robert L. Forward. She's a friend of mine, and someone I gamed with in college. A lot of the stuff in that book is based on her college gaming experiences, and I find little bits of people and characters I know in some of the characters in that book. It's a fun read!

I knew it! Some fantasy authors, when you read them, you can just tell that they've played D&D. Sometimes a lot.

I remember reading the Paksenarrion series - and being able to tell what level fighter she was, because the author (Elizabeth Moon, wasn't it?) was kind enough to tell us what weapon proficiencies she had.

 

[barsoomcore]

Well, I'm a HUGE fan of the Big Bad Guy theory of campaign construction, but I abhor the Big Bad Guy's Got A Fatal Weakness theory of Big Bad Guy construction.

You don't get to be a Big Bad Guy if you're the type to overlook your own weaknesses.

My campaign has an absurdly large number of BBGs. Vampire queens, undead tyrants, ancient heros still looking for someone to fight, imprisoned gods finding their way back, ALMOST extinct races that want to eat people, the list goes on and on.

Pretty much none of them have anything in the way of serious weaknesses. The would-be BBGs who did have weaknesses are all dead now, and what's left are the ones who pretty much thought of everything. They're just bad news and the party is not going to find easy ways to defeat them.

The idea of the campaign really is that in order to stop a great power, you have to become a great power yourself. Very few people sit down and decide to be bad. It's all question of perspective and point of view. So the party eventually will become great powers themselves -- and they will be seen as BBGs by others. Unless they choose to just lie down and let all these terrible forces do what they like with the world.

The campaign's been going for two years now and they've managed to stop one great power -- the vampire queen who got set up by an old lover and is now a normal, 1st level human being. With a LOT of enemies around the world and no way to defend herself. So now some of the party are PROTECTING her -- it's hilarious.

What was I talking about? Oh yeah, overcoming the bad guys. So this is another approach -- there is no MacGuffin, no Achilles' Heel. The Big Bad Guys are tough and nasty and you just have to get tough enough and nasty enough to do what needs to be done.

 

[Psion]

What was I talking about? Oh yeah, overcoming the bad guys. So this is another approach -- there is no MacGuffin, no Achilles' Heel. The Big Bad Guys are tough and nasty and you just have to get tough enough and nasty enough to do what needs to be done.

No good. I've done things that way too long now and want the players to actually have to worry about something, instead of just being one brawl after another.

 

[barsoomcore]

No good. I've done things that way too long now and want the players to actually have to worry about something, instead of just being one brawl after another.

Fair enough. I guess in your original post, you made it sound as if your party is typically matched against enemies who they equal in approximate strength. In my campaign, the party is most definitely matched against enemies they are no match for whatsoever -- 5th-level players against deities, for example. They don't have any secret weapons or dingi to handle the situation -- they just try and manipulate circumstances so that they can get their heads down and hope things go kablooie in appropriate fashion.

They ARE slowly acquiring power, however, and one day (in probably a couple of more years) they'll be on an equal footing with some of the BBGs running about. By that time, of course, they'll be BBGs themselves and there will no doubt be bold parties of desperate heroes looking to put THEM out of business.