Destructive Terrain and more dynamic battlefields

[greyscale1]

Damn you bardolf!




...Thats a better solution than mine.


However, the main reason I worked out this system was to help make epic level combats feel more explosive, dangerous, and epic.

Perhaps do what you said, but keep the multipler for tier?

Its just that I have always felt that high level fights with high level foes in a non-structually reinforced and clean'n'simple area (say, a wooden inn) shouldn't just leave the place as they left it unless the players particularly try to be careful. Super high level fights should TEAR APART the battlefield! I guess its just me who feels that way.

 

[Nur-ab-sal]

Personally, I love the idea (at least by epic, you're supposed to be superheroes, and superheroes aren't super without Demolition Man type stuff), and would consider implementing a simpler system in a campaign, but I'm not worrying about it at this point b/c we have a ways to go before getting to levels where it will matter.

 

[Dirigible]

I don't think castle walls have crumple zones.

And yet, in 98%* of castle vs. car collisions, it's the people in the vehicle, which does have a crumple zone, that come out worse off!

I'm not expert enough with the 4e rules to assess the numbers invovled, but I love the idea here. It sounds like a load of laffs (especially if you salt the battlefield with barrels and crates full of oil, acid, or rabid weasels that can get broken during play), so long as you don't mind your game having a bit of a Hercules/Xena TV prog or Jackie Chan movie feel to them. Heroes of Iron, Scenery of Cardboard.


* = the other 2% where the car is a Volvo.

 

[knightofround]

I think this is a really awesome idea, as it makes bullrushes/knockback much more useful. However I think you went overboard with how much damage you deal by smashing stuff into things. You're double counting a lot of stuff, like both teir and level, strength and number of squares pushed, and size shouldn't have an impact on the amount of damage, because that's already figured into all the things listed beforehand.

How about building a system similar to the 4th edition handles falling damage? On pg 44 of the DMG it lists fall severity by level; I think we could build a similar table for "smash damage" by level

#1: Set painful = 1 square of movement, perilous = 2 square of movement, deadly = 3 squares of movement.

#2: Change "feet" to damage, and divide each entry by a figure, depending how "knockaround" you want your campaign to be. I think 2 is a good modifer, so level 11-15 chars can knock foes through wooden doors with a one-square push. I like this because it nicely pairs with the "teir" idea, except this adjusts every half-teir. Of course you could choose a different number depending upon how anime-ish or realistic you want your campaign to be.

#3: (optional) change "level" to represent strength...like take a character's strength mod * 3. So a character with a +4 str mod would act as a 12th level character on that chart.

I think a table is a better way to handle "smash damage" because summing up a ton of modifiers is lame, thats a step backwards towards 3rd edition =P

You could also tack on additional house rules to this idea as well, like a critical hit moves you up one or two half-tiers, or you can spend an action point to move up one or two half-tiers, that sort of thing. Or you can have some classes be better at "smashing stuff" than others (it stands to reason a 20th level fighter one-square push is going to be much more powerful than a 20th level wizard's physical one-square push, however if the 20th level wizard has a spell that pushes the opponent back one square it might be equivilent to a fighter's push.

Depends how complicated you want it to be.

 

[greyscale1]

Thanks for the response Knight.

Perhaps my wording wasn't completely clear, but I fail to see how my system is very complicated! It creates a static figure using simple math. Level 16 wizard with 20 intelligence, thats 36. That took me all of 10 seconds to come up with and do the math for. Now all that is necessary is to see it play out in combat.


I have made some minor mechanical revisions to the system to make attack stat play a bigger role than before, and also slightly reduce damage done across the board.

It is now (1/2char level + Attack Stat Mod)*Tier. All other rules still apply. This makes it more in line with my original intent.

 

[erik_the_guy]

A bit less damage would make sense. How about 2d6 + stat modifier damage to the object (increase to 4d6 at paragon and 6d6 at epic). I say this because it doesn't make sense that you can break down a wall by knocking someone into it, but not with your own attacks or weapons.
Also, you should not deal damage for each square pushed. Some effects push a character many squares, and as in the example you gave they could end up dealing ridiculous amounts of damage with low level abilities.
Obviously this is a bit less showy. You probably won't be pushing titans through castles, but I can see you knocking down weaker walls, or other obstacles.

 

[bardolph]

This seems like the kind of thing that is handled better by DM fiat than with a system. If the DM wants the building to cave in, then by all means knock out those walls!

 

[greyscale1]

Bardolf: Yes - But.


I'm pretty explicitly saying that this system is there so that players can destroy stuff on their own, and mostly for things like obstacles, tables, and doors. Things like buildings are still DM Fiat, but this system gives guidelines to help.

Its for DM's who want to give the freedom to do something thematic and destructive to their players, with a system that is mechanical and simple to back it up.

If the DM wants to destroy stuff for effect he still can. But with this, players can mechanically influence battlefield terrain in meaningful ways, that allow the DM to maintain consistency in his 'yeah, thats allowed' decisions.

 

[bardolph]

Bardolf: Yes - But.


I'm pretty explicitly saying that this system is there so that players can destroy stuff on their own, and mostly for things like obstacles, tables, and doors. Things like buildings are still DM Fiat, but this system gives guidelines to help.

Its for DM's who want to give the freedom to do something thematic and destructive to their players, with a system that is mechanical and simple to back it up.

If the DM wants to destroy stuff for effect he still can. But with this, players can mechanically influence battlefield terrain in meaningful ways, that allow the DM to maintain consistency in his 'yeah, thats allowed' decisions.

Fair enough. The formula isn't bad. I'd still shy away from doing those kinds of calculations in the middle of a game, since even a one-minute slowdown is more than I want. However, doing a bit of pre-calculation between sessions to get some good "rules of thumb" before starting the game could help a lot.

 

[greyscale1]

Oh, thats what I intended from the beginning. This is a stat to be generated and then used on the fly.

Player flings someone into a medium statue, in my head I think 40hp. Is his score bigger? Y/N? Math done, faster than even rolling a D20 and adding modifiers.