Detect Evil/Good... Metagaming?

[Dimitri Mazieres]

I was thinking about the whole alignment subject, and from there its relation to the game mechanics. There's no question that in D&D alignment plays a bigger part than just a suggestion on how to conduct your character, since there are a lot of spells that derive their effects on this quality. But, when it comes to Detect Evil/Good spells/abilities, I wonder if it is necessary at all, or even if it's simply a hindrance to roleplaying. I mean, I understand its uses for detecting whether an artifact or place is evil/good, but when it comes to PCs and NPCs, don't you think it would qualify as metagaming? There's always the possibility that an evil NPC would prove useful or have the same goals as the party, and not jump to the PCs throats the moment they turn their backs on him, regardless of his alignment...
As a humorous example, one does not need to look further than the Order of the Stick, or Zogonia to see what I mean.

So, how do you deal with this? I was thinking that when (if) I get my gaming group back together, I would use Ravenloft's approach of alignment being undetectable, or at least house rule the spell/ability so that it only works for items/places.

 

[Voadam]

Another option is to reserve alignment effects like evil to evil descriptor things, outsiders, spells, items, etc. So detect evil notes devils, unholy swords, and a necromancer casting animate dead. I might then add the evil descriptor to undead as well so they detect. This gives paladins more of a supernatural witch hunter vibe with their detect evil power.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Or just put in some non-hostile evil NPCs. Have a murder mystery type adventure, where the party is quite likely to discover that most of the deAmbervilles are evil, but that this does not mean that one of them committed the murder. (Obviously it was Wiggens the butler, one insult to many, poor chap.)

Have a scenario where the first, and possibly only, person in town to support the PCs is a lawful evil sort - he wants the bad stuff to stop because it's bad for... business.

Basically, make sure that knowing who is evil does not automatically tell the players who is guilty. Heck, an evil stalker/fanboy of one of the PCs can be a lot of fun. Creepy and nasty, but he really likes the paladin, and goes out of his way to smooth out possible... difficulties.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Putting in some redeemable evil characters can also flesh out that handy though the Detect Evil spell may be, it is not always going to hand you the answers on a silver charger.

 

[Freakohollik]

I've never found it to be an issue. The designers knew about it, thats why we have the undetectable alignment spell. Anyone who matters in D&D can get access to it.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I like how Pathfinder has interpreted Detect Evil - All evil creatures of 5HD or lower do not project an aura of evil. Only undead, outsiders and Paladins/Clerics are guaranteed to have an aura of evil (or good as it were). This goes a long way to preventing some of the silliness I have seen in games regarding detect evil. I suppose I would have preferred that most creatures do not project an evil aura, regardless of level or HD. a typically "evil" NPC migh not be inherently evil, even though they occasionally commit evil acts.

In play, detect evil just ends up being a gameworld radar, and in design terms, it acts as a roleplaying distractor rather than an enabler. It is kind of like how the search skill distracted some players from interacting with the environment. "I search the room...[roll], wow I make DC 34, what do I find?"

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Dimitri Mazieres]

Another option is to reserve alignment effects like evil to evil descriptor things, outsiders, spells, items, etc. So detect evil notes devils, unholy swords, and a necromancer casting animate dead. I might then add the evil descriptor to undead as well so they detect. This gives paladins more of a supernatural witch hunter vibe with their detect evil power.

This is something like what I was aiming for when I mentioned limiting the spell/ability, but better expressed

Or just put in some non-hostile evil NPCs. Have a murder mystery type adventure, where the party is quite likely to discover that most of the deAmbervilles are evil, but that this does not mean that one of them committed the murder. (Obviously it was Wiggens the butler, one insult to many, poor chap.)

Have a scenario where the first, and possibly only, person in town to support the PCs is a lawful evil sort - he wants the bad stuff to stop because it's bad for... business.

Basically, make sure that knowing who is evil does not automatically tell the players who is guilty. Heck, an evil stalker/fanboy of one of the PCs can be a lot of fun. Creepy and nasty, but he really likes the paladin, and goes out of his way to smooth out possible... difficulties.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Putting in some redeemable evil characters can also flesh out that handy though the Detect Evil spell may be, it is not always going to hand you the answers on a silver charger.

Those are all good suggestions, but they require the players to go through them to get the feeling of how things are going to be regarding alignment.
I was thinking more about a mechanic change so no experimentation would be needed after starting playing.

I like how Pathfinder has interpreted Detect Evil - All evil creatures of 5HD or lower do not project an aura of evil. Only undead, outsiders and Paladins/Clerics are guaranteed to have an aura of evil (or good as it were). This goes a long way to preventing some of the silliness I have seen in games regarding detect evil. I suppose I would have preferred that most creatures do not project an evil aura, regardless of level or HD. a typically "evil" NPC migh not be inherently evil, even though they occasionally commit evil acts.

Another fine example of limiting the mechanic. I think I would only apply the evil/good aura to those with some sort of supernatural quality, and not based on HD.

In play, detect evil just ends up being a gameworld radar, and in design terms, it acts as a roleplaying distractor rather than an enabler. It is kind of like how the search skill distracted some players from interacting with the environment. "I search the room...[roll], wow I make DC 34, what do I find?"

Exactly

Case in point:

 

[Umbran]

I mean, I understand its uses for detecting whether an artifact or place is evil/good, but when it comes to PCs and NPCs, don't you think it would qualify as metagaming? There's always the possibility that an evil NPC would prove useful or have the same goals as the party, and not jump to the PCs throats the moment they turn their backs on him, regardless of his alignment...

That's true. But as the DM, what the party chooses to do with the information at their disposal isn't your call to make.

If the characters are on the world to destroy the forces of X, and they have the in-game ability to detect forces of X, using that ability to do the job isn't metagaming. It might be less than wise to cut to the chase too quickly, but it isn't metagaming. I generally just let the PCs make their choices - if they miss important information or aid, they have to live with it.

Though, honestly, I think I may have seen the spell used more to stop the party from killing something out of hand, than to allow them to do so - "Gee, that looked a bit dodgy to me, I cast Detect Evil. No? Well, maybe there's more going on than I thought..."

 

[Ariosto]

Metagaming? Isn't that something like "making character decisions in an RPG based upon game knowledge rather than character knowledge"?

And is not casting the spell a character action, the information gained "character knowledge"?

 

[pawsplay]

I like how Pathfinder has interpreted Detect Evil - All evil creatures of 5HD or lower do not project an aura of evil.

I don't like it because I think that is too metagamey. This was hashed out at length on the Pathfinder subforum, but it bascially game down to two camps: one where detect evil represented personal evil power, and the other where it represented having sufficiently evil motives. I personally feel the Pathfinder version is inconsistent in that respect, as momentary evil intentions can ping a mid-level Neutral character as evil, whereas even the most evil deeds do not register with a 4 HD (despite occasionaly claims to the contrary by some, even active evil intent does not change this situation, since that only causes them to appear as evil creatures... who at 4 HD still have no detectable aura).

 

[Janx]

For a DM running a murder mystery, there's a number of spells that make it too easy.

Detect Evil, Speak with Dead are examples.

If the DM isn't thinking ahead (or just adapting a novel/show to the game), it's easy to forget to cover these shortcuts.

The other reaction is the GM will go to even greater lengths nerf or counter those spells. Some of that is also unreasonable.

the ideal would be to have a solution that lets the DM run a good murder mystery adventure at any level of party. whatever that means (which is open to interpretation).

Just removing those spells turns every murder mystery into sherlock holmes.

It also gets rid of the usefulness of those spells in non-murder mystery games. Like somebody died, it wasn't supposed to be a murder mystery with clues, the PCs just need to get info and move on.

I would suspect that a villain would have to plan on and counter these spells, just like a modern day villain has to counter our modern day CSI techniques.


personally, I hate Detect Alignment spells. You can't bring the party into a community where some of the people are evil, so that later one of the evil people surprises them with their evilness with that spell easily available (ex. Paladin running it 24x7). Somebody blocking their alignment from the paladin makes them a suspect.

Sure there will be ACLU types who want their freedom of unknowable alignment even though they're good and will block it just to yank the paladin's chain, but seriously, that gets old. And when one of the people locked in the mansion with is evilly plotting to kill everybody else, you don't dick around with respecting people's privacy. When 2 of them show up as blocking their alignment, they are both suspects.