Detect Evil/Good... Metagaming?

[DrunkonDuty]

Plane Sailing wrote:
I'd never consider using Detect Evil as metagaming though. If it is available, the use of it is just gaming, right?

I don't think it is metagaming. It can be used in a metagaming fashion. Then again, many things can be used in a metagaming fashion. I do like your idea that it only detects supernatural evil rather than an individual's morality.

More generally:
All up I really hate many of the info gathering spells available in DnD. They just totally destroy any mystery plot. My last campaign was basically a mystery plot (BBEG was working clandestinely to bring down the kingdom) and I just had to keep saying "You get no information from that spell." My in-game reason was that as a cleric of a god of thieves and lies and secrets she had plenty of powers to counter such hamfisted investigations. Most took it well, one whinged a bit but just stopped using those spells after a while, which is what I wanted. I actually feel a little bad about that, but it was the only way that game was going to work.

And I think this just comes down to a basic game philosophy whereby Spell X does Effect Y. The effects (thinking really of divination spells) tend toward all or nothing. And it can be hard work to get around that as a GM.

All of which is tangential to the original topic. Sorry.

 

[Zer01337]

I remember a session of 3.5 a few years ago when the party I played in had an overly zealous paladin. When meeting a contact with some information, he auto-detected, determined the contact was evil and smote him before saying anything to the npc (except "Die evil doer!").

One murder trial later and the player was creating a new character....

I don't think they used detect evil again for at least a few months....

good times, and funny as hell.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Be careful not to overdo the "false readings" for Detect Evil.

Some DMs hate Paladins and go out of their way to make Detect Evil useless or counterproductive.
When every person who detects as "evil" is slightly dodgy but doesn't deserve punishment, and every mystery has a "neutral" bad guy who does horribly evil stuff but has a fruedian excuse to be neutral, and every question that comes up only has wrong answers so the paladin falls whichever they choose, you wonder why the DM doesn't just ban Paladins and Detect Evil.

The reason is that they really enjoy screwing over Paladins.

Geoff.

 

[Derren]

Detect alignment spells are fine. DMs just need to accept that those abilities exist and run the world that way, instead of pretending that they don't exist.

Same for all other information gathering spells. When you want to run a murder mystery, take those spells into acount (dependant on the ability of the murderer) instead of complaining that generic murder plots copied directly from a book or TV show don't work.

The most important thing you need to do is to clarify what alignment means, both to you and your players. What makes someone evil, what causes alignment shifts and can there be evil creatures which do not deserve death (apart from radiating evil because of birth(posession of an magic item).

 

[Zer01337]

"Be careful not to overdo the "false readings" for Detect Evil."

Yeah, their contact was a lawful evil necromancer... totally valid reading, but since he hadn't broken any laws (in public) and the fact that the paladin used smite to knock off nearly half the guys' hp in the first strike and drove him into the negatives in the followup strike before the rest of the party could say more than 'no wait!' (all this in a very public bar scene) and 2 rounds later there was a dead necromancer npc (who also was a friend of the lord of the city, having earned the lords' favor with magical aid and enhancement of the lords' guardsmen).

The player of the paladins' whole defense during trial was that the guy was evil and deserved to die for it. When the player started taking about escaping from jail and fleeing from prosecution the dm reminded him that he is lawful and a breakout can lead to alignment issues (let alone beating up good/neutral guards who are work the jail shift). Man was he pissed, I don't think he's ever played a paldin (or even a lawful aligned character) since!

 

[Ptorquemada]

Some of the complaints in this thread are about problems that have already been fixed, at least in 3.5 (it's possible they re-broke it for 4.0, but I wouldn't know). For example, the Paladin's Detect Evil ability is not always on, Detect Evil isn't instantaneous, and unless the detectee has some actual connection to Spooky Evil Forces, they don't blip the radar (being a cleric of an evil god, or being undead, would be a connection; having murdered your entire village in their sleep just because you felt like it, not so much). That in itself goes a long way to curb abuses.

One of the really nice features of the Eberron setting in particular is that alignment isn't quite as rigid there, so it's possible (if a bit unusual) for a cleric in the service of a lawful good god to actually be chaotic evil personally (or vice versa, though that's probably less likely). Also, it tends to make urban encounters a bit more realistic: the response of the town guards to the PCs going "But that guy's evil!" is likely to be "So what? You're the one disturbing the peace, so you're the one coming downtown with us, buddy."

 

[Hereticus]

So, how do you deal with this? I was thinking that when (if) I get my gaming group back together, I would use Ravenloft's approach of alignment being undetectable, or at least house rule the spell/ability so that it only works for items/places.

Good and Evil can be an alignment, or it can be a nature.

As an alignment, it is subjective and not constant.

Detect Evil will detect a demon, devil or cleric with an evil aura. But it will not detect an orc fighter with a usually nasty disposition.

 

[Hereticus]

Sure there will be ACLU types who want their freedom of unknowable alignment even though they're good and will block it just to yank the paladin's chain, but seriously, that gets old. And when one of the people locked in the mansion with is evilly plotting to kill everybody else, you don't dick around with respecting people's privacy. When 2 of them show up as blocking their alignment, they are both suspects.

To discover an alignment, the easiest way is to observe a fellow character over time.

Then there is the shortcut of Detect Thoughts, Know Alignment, or questioning under Detect Lie.

Besides, alignment is too subjective. A person that the majority in society deems to be evil, could be good in their own mind. Even the sickest of actions can sometimes be justified.

 

[Hereticus]

ok, if I ever run 3.5 again that settles it, the ACLU is gonna be handing out free amulets that block alignment detection cuz that's just cool

Alignment Concealment Liberties Union

I got one with my last donation!

 

[Hereticus]

Murdering someone on the street because he detects as evil is still murder, and it's still an evil action. At best, it's a neutral action, because you're still using an evil means to do something good.

If following some evil deity like Asmodeus, Demogorgon, Bane or Moradin is illegal in town, you can declare your enemy a member and legally kill them with justification.