[Devil’s Workshop] D20 Shakespeare: Macbeth available at RPGNow.com

[jezter6]

If I have hired them for work, then I have to pay them. Thay is why I call my company and business and not a vanity press. All of my guys are professional writers and this is how they earn their living. Asking them to do it for free is like me telling you when you go to work but don't asccept a paycheck and still pay your bills and live. I could not do that.

Not a problem. I am always up to a good debate of ideas and concepts in a peaceful forum. There is always something that I learn from doing this. When you work like many small publishers due, basically in your own "little bubble of your work" you can lose you perspective on things. Doing this on the form work as a good dose of reality to many of us.

I do see your point...but is this really an industry where this many people can survive doing this as full time work? I mean, people like Rich Redman, Monte Cooke, Sean Reynolds, etc...they have fairly high name recognition to back them up as SMEs (subject matter experts) and could, and do, easily find work in the industry.

And I do believe that people need to get paid for serious work, but the question lies in where the line is drawn between a hobby and a job...and also a line of what is a 'serious work' and what is something that used to be a fun post in houserules and people are now trying to sell for $1-3.

Is a single class, which is so small that it cannot support a fair preview, really a 'serious work?' I say no...a single class is not serious, and is bad form. I think a book of classes at a fair and reasonable price is good form, and is of the length where a preview is warranted and fair. Do people buy them in singles? Yes. I haven't heard great praise and reviews for a single class PDF yet...but I've heard great things about Blood and Guts, Blood and Fists, Martial Arts Mayhem, Modern Player's Companion 1&2...and they have multiple classes per book, at a more than fair value to the consumer. The $1.50-$3 per class model is (IMHO) not a fair value to the consumer. I'll take Blood and Guts as a base since I already have it open currently. They have 16 classes in the book, as well as a ton of other material. At even the cheap end of the spectrum, that would have been $24 and $48 on the high end. Now, I can go buy hardcover books with tons of crunch for that price, where I would only have gotten 16 classes....not a good value, when people will willingly complain that a 96 page WotC softcover is too expensive at $20, which will undoubtedly carry a few classes and setting fluff.

In the same token, is the whole "12 magical pipe cleaners for your campaign" (quote stolen from someone, wish I remembered who) really a worth while venture? People are buying it, sure...but that doesn't seem to me like a valuable resource...we used to post goofy stuff like that in house rules for fun and FREE, yet now people are trying to grab money off of it. Many don't see it my way, and that is fine. If it was a book full of magical items, at a good page count with plenty of item background, then I would be interested...but 12 items, I don't think so.

What happened to serious books? Books full of fluff and crunch, and were good reads as well...Obviously the market is not doing well, and publishers are trying any way to make money to stay afloat. The problem is when staying afloat adversely affects the market by doing something detrimental to the hobby to support the business. And yes, I do think that these short pdf's are detrimental to the hobby, and while they make be making just enough money to keep you afloat, are not valuable resources to consumers. People are scaling back their purchasing, and people are putting MORE product out...again, supply and demand is not working in this market.

 

[philreed]

In the same token, is the whole "12 magical pipe cleaners for your campaign" (quote stolen from someone, wish I remembered who) really a worth while venture? People are buying it, sure...but that doesn't seem to me like a valuable resource...we used to post goofy stuff like that in house rules for fun and FREE, yet now people are trying to grab money off of it. Many don't see it my way, and that is fine. If it was a book full of magical items, at a good page count with plenty of item background, then I would be interested...but 12 items, I don't think so.

In my opinion, the "Dozens" series published by Ronin Arts is packed with lots of fun, useful material. People enjoy them, I receive requests for specific items/subjects, and they're fun to write. And, for the most part, these aren't even magic items.

What happened to serious books? Books full of fluff and crunch, and were good reads as well...Obviously the market is not doing well, and publishers are trying any way to make money to stay afloat. The problem is when staying afloat adversely affects the market by doing something detrimental to the hobby to support the business. And yes, I do think that these short pdf's are detrimental to the hobby, and while they make be making just enough money to keep you afloat, are not valuable resources to consumers. People are scaling back their purchasing, and people are putting MORE product out...again, supply and demand is not working in this market.

Okay, are you looking for game books or fiction? And each release by Ronin Arts is as serious as any 128-page release. And in addition to the smaller releases we publish larger PDFs -- 30-pages, 40-pages, 50-pages, 100-pages, almost 200-pages -- we've done all of these.

Ronin Arts products are written to be dropped into a game and used. While we add some flavor text and background information, for the most part these are plug-n-play for almost any standard fantasy campaign.

If people really want the type of products you're talking about then that is what they'll buy. But, in my experience, people _want_ 5-20-page PDFs. While we do release larger PDFs on occasion, the shorter ones have better sales. What does this tell you about the market's desires?

 

[jezter6]

It tells me that sales *number of products sold* for those are up...

However, a lot of this may have to do with upped minimums on rpgnow and the need for that $1.40 pdf to jsut be able to purchase the $5 that you want. I have no evidence of that, and only james could tell us if the majority of the cheap PDFs are purchased as addons to larger products, or if people are really looking to purchase $1.40 pdfs. The problem here lies not in the cost, but the value of what I'm getting. I have no problems with you setting cheap prices on your pdfs...what I want is value, and not a way for you to tack on $1.40 so people can overcome the minimums.

I will say that 3 pages, 5 pages, even 8 pages is really not enough. Would you buy a stephen king book chapter by chapter for $2.50 each, knowing FULL well that the rest of the whole books cost about $10? When you end up buying the chapter by chapter version, you suddenly have a $30 book for what really should be only $10. While your sales numbers look good, and obviously the model is working for you, it's still not an ethical way to do business (IMHO). There's no reason that 5 classes can't be put together into a 'small' book of 20 pages and sold for $3-4...but what is happening is people INTENTIONALLY putting out single classes for that same price.

Not only is it not good business, it's taking advantage of a consumer's willingness to purchase sub-par products.

Thank you, as well, for debating peacefully. Consumers do see conversations like this and I hope they make decisions based upon your (and Louis) reactions of being fair and polite. You have both shown that you can talk openly about this without resorting to the petty tricks of other publishers...

Those of you who can't respond politely, take a look at these guys to see how professionalism is supposed to be.

 

[philreed]

However, a lot of this may have to do with upped minimums on rpgnow and the need for that $1.40 pdf to jsut be able to purchase the $5 that you want. I have no evidence of that, and only james could tell us if the majority of the cheap PDFs are purchased as addons to larger products, or if people are really looking to purchase $1.40 pdfs. The problem here lies not in the cost, but the value of what I'm getting. I have no problems with you setting cheap prices on your pdfs...what I want is value, and not a way for you to tack on $1.40 so people can overcome the minimums.

Actually, I have access to Ronin Arts' orders and am happy to report that most orders are for 5, 8, 10, even 20 of our PDFs at a time. While some orders include only 1 or 2 of one of our short PDFs, people usually buy them in bulk. And we get a lot of repear customers. I think you're misjudging the number of gamers who actually like shopping ala cart. Just as I would love to do with cable . . . but that's another discussion.

I will say that 3 pages, 5 pages, even 8 pages is really not enough. Would you buy a stephen king book chapter by chapter for $2.50 each, knowing FULL well that the rest of the whole books cost about $10? When you end up buying the chapter by chapter version, you suddenly have a $30 book for what really should be only $10. While your sales numbers look good, and obviously the model is working for you, it's still not an ethical way to do business (IMHO). There's no reason that 5 classes can't be put together into a 'small' book of 20 pages and sold for $3-4...but what is happening is people INTENTIONALLY putting out single classes for that same price.

I don't feel ethics have anything to do with it. We frequently compile shorter products so that people can buy material in any way that best suits them. A strong benefit to PDF is the ability to offer products as large packages or small bites of information. Those that want to pick and choose buy the shorter PDFs while those that want everything just wait for the compilation.

And, for the record, Steven King did produce a novel in the manner that you describe.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

Just throwing this out there: I buy shorter PDFs (5-20 pages) for two reasons. One, if I buy a book like A Dozen Effects of Lingering Spell Energy or D20 Shakespeare: Macbeth, based on price and pagecount, I know exactly what I'm getting and (for the most) that the material inside the PDF is what I think I'm buying. When buying something completely sight-unseen, this is a great relief to me. Two, it's a hell of a lot easier to read a short PDF on the screen (from 5-32 pages) than it is to read a longer one (anything over 32 pages on my computer screen and I have to go off and do something else until my eyes start hurting).

I'm a little puzzled at your comments about the low-pricing being unethical or taking advantage of consumers, but I think I can see your point of view and where it could happen (and, yes, I've bought really short PDFs that I've been fairly disappointed with as far as content, but I've never felt taken advantage of as much as I have when I've bought a longer PDF that ends up being unfocused and not what I expected).

Just some thoughts. Interesting thread.

Nick

 

[lmpjr007]

I will say that 3 pages, 5 pages, even 8 pages is really not enough. Would you buy a stephen king book chapter by chapter for $2.50 each, knowing FULL well that the rest of the whole books cost about $10? When you end up buying the chapter by chapter version, you suddenly have a $30 book for what really should be only $10. While your sales numbers look good, and obviously the model is working for you, it's still not an ethical way to do business (IMHO). There's no reason that 5 classes can't be put together into a 'small' book of 20 pages and sold for $3-4...but what is happening is people INTENTIONALLY putting out single classes for that same price.

I will say this, when I first started my Archetype and Template series for M&M Superlink I only thought we might get a maximum of 4 or 5 Archetypes or Templates. But in the end as of now, we came up with 16 Archetypes and 13 Templates plus we have more planned to come out. Now I did not know when I started I would get this many, but we did. So to handle the issue of indiviual PDF and grouping the by year, as with our 2004 Collected Archetypes and Templates. Now the collection are cheaper then the single versions of the PDFs, but for the rougly 60 - 70 pages 2004 Collected Archetype is $12.00. Get the specific ones you want for $1.85 each or all of them for $12.00, the choice is yours.

Now with all that said, and I am sure Phil will agree with me on this one, often you will get people you say, "I would buy product XYZ but only if it was collected." Then you decide to collect the next similar product to XYZ in one book and you get this, "I would purchase product XYZ but only if is were in seperate files to get the specific ones I want." You would believe how often this happens. Could drive you to becoming a RPG Publisher.

 

[lmpjr007]

I will say that 3 pages, 5 pages, even 8 pages is really not enough. Would you buy a stephen king book chapter by chapter for $2.50 each, knowing FULL well that the rest of the whole books cost about $10? When you end up buying the chapter by chapter version, you suddenly have a $30 book for what really should be only $10. While your sales numbers look good, and obviously the model is working for you, it's still not an ethical way to do business (IMHO). There's no reason that 5 classes can't be put together into a 'small' book of 20 pages and sold for $3-4...but what is happening is people INTENTIONALLY putting out single classes for that same price.

I will say this, when I first started my Archetype and Template series for M&M Superlink I only thought we might get a maximum of 4 or 5 Archetypes or Templates. But in the end as of now, we came up with 16 Archetypes and 13 Templates plus we have more planned to come out. Now I did not know when I started I would get this many, but we did. So to handle the issue of individual PDFs we started grouping the by year, as with our 2004 Collected Archetypes and Templates. Now the collection are cheaper then the single versions of the PDFs, but for the roughly 60 - 70 pages 2004 Collected Archetype is $12.00. Get the specific ones you want for $1.85 each or all of them for $12.00 the choice is yours.

Now with all that said, and I am sure Phil will agree with me on this one, often you will get people you say, "I would buy product XYZ but only if it was collected." Then you decide to collect the next similar product to XYZ in one book and you get this, "I would purchase product XYZ but only if is were in separate files to get the specific ones I want." You would believe how often this happens. Could drive you to becoming a RPG Publisher.

 

[jezter6]

Actually, I have access to Ronin Arts' orders and am happy to report that most orders are for 5, 8, 10, even 20 of our PDFs at a time. While some orders include only 1 or 2 of one of our short PDFs, people usually buy them in bulk. And we get a lot of repear customers. I think you're misjudging the number of gamers who actually like shopping ala cart. Just as I would love to do with cable . . . but that's another discussion.


I don't feel ethics have anything to do with it. We frequently compile shorter products so that people can buy material in any way that best suits them. A strong benefit to PDF is the ability to offer products as large packages or small bites of information. Those that want to pick and choose buy the shorter PDFs while those that want everything just wait for the compilation.

And, for the record, Steven King did produce a novel in the manner that you describe.

I'm pretty sure he did, but IIRC it was a collection of multiple chapters, not paying for a single 10-12 page chapter. If I'm mistaken, feel free to point that out.

If your products are being purchased in bulk like that, why not just put out a full size book and average the cost out? Instead of putting out 3 big books at the $7 or so average, you're putting out 15 books at $2-3...

Same goes for the single class model. As described in a post above, it's just wrong...at least in the sense of doing such by intentionally putting it out in smaller chunks first to garner more sales individually.

If you (or anyone, I'm not really speaking at you in particluar) put out both a full version and a short version for people to choose which they would like best, that's one thing. The problem is, this isn't being done. Those of us who would like a bunch of classes, have to spend 3 or 4 times as much. (As the person who bought your books in quantities of 5 and 10 and up, Phil)

If other companies can survive putting out full books with a couple of classes, and feats, AND other rules...and still be successful at it, how is it not unethical to intentionally split up a product into smaller individual parts for the pure purpose of taking more money?

As a side though, maybe unethical is too strong of a word. It is poor business, and I as a consumer feel jilted. In the RPG market, too many publishers just don't care. A lost sale is not important to them...and it should be. There are publishers I refuse to purchase anything from specifically for their behavior and the way they treat consumers, and I gladly support the ones that consistently put out high quality product and give me a fair value for my money.

 

[jezter6]

I will say this, when I first started my Archetype and Template series for M&M Superlink I only thought we might get a maximum of 4 or 5 Archetypes or Templates. But in the end as of now, we came up with 16 Archetypes and 13 Templates plus we have more planned to come out. Now I did not know when I started I would get this many, but we did. So to handle the issue of individual PDFs we started grouping the by year, as with our 2004 Collected Archetypes and Templates. Now the collection are cheaper then the single versions of the PDFs, but for the roughly 60 - 70 pages 2004 Collected Archetype is $12.00. Get the specific ones you want for $1.85 each or all of them for $12.00 the choice is yours.

Now with all that said, and I am sure Phil will agree with me on this one, often you will get people you say, "I would buy product XYZ but only if it was collected." Then you decide to collect the next similar product to XYZ in one book and you get this, "I would purchase product XYZ but only if is were in separate files to get the specific ones I want." You would believe how often this happens. Could drive you to becoming a RPG Publisher.

The question is, why didn't you save up the 5 or 6 you had planned and make THEM into a short PDF? A short PDF of 20 pages doesn't sound so bad as a short PDF of 3 pages...

And if people want it individually, why not compile a decent amount before releasing them individually and then publish both? It's fair to the people who want more value for the dollar, and to those who truly wish to have only a single part of it.

Even if I am wrong in what I think your intentions were (which I very well could be), it's that I thought they were of a suspicious nature, and other people could hold that opinion as well based only on the fact that you're releasing them individually, THEN coming back and reselling them all over again in a collection. If I purchased a bunch of them individually, only to find out I could have gotten them cheaper a few weeks later, I would be a MIGHTY unhappy consumer and it would be the last sale you ever saw from me.

I don't remember your first announcement of the series, but I do remember announcements of other publishers who are creating a full product and intentionally releasing since parts first and then the collective piece later. I don't want to buy 10 classes, then buy the core book with the same 10 classes in it...it's just me spending the same money twice.

 

[philreed]

If your products are being purchased in bulk like that, why not just put out a full size book and average the cost out? Instead of putting out 3 big books at the $7 or so average, you're putting out 15 books at $2-3...

Because these orders aren't for the exact same PDFs. People _like_ to mix and match. And usually completely different types of products.

If you (or anyone, I'm not really speaking at you in particluar) put out both a full version and a short version for people to choose which they would like best, that's one thing. The problem is, this isn't being done. Those of us who would like a bunch of classes, have to spend 3 or 4 times as much. (As the person who bought your books in quantities of 5 and 10 and up, Phil)

There is no if. This is being done. Ronin Arts has released collections that are just simple zip files with all of one type of PDF _and_ completely revised, expanded, and collected material into larger PDFs with all new artwork. And when this happens we provide past customers with the collection at no charge.

If other companies can survive putting out full books with a couple of classes, and feats, AND other rules...and still be successful at it, how is it not unethical to intentionally split up a product into smaller individual parts for the pure purpose of taking more money?

It's not unethical at all. It's a publishing model and nothing more. Those that like this type of model benefit from it. Those that don't can buy the collections. I don't understand the problem.