[Devil’s Workshop] D20 Shakespeare: Macbeth available at RPGNow.com

[jezter6]

Phil, if you are releasing collections at the same time as your singles, and pricing it according to industry averages, then you are not the target of my rant. I don't know your particular publishing habits, as most of it is a genre I don't frequent as much as others.

Those that like this type of model benefit from it. Those that don't can buy the collections. I don't understand the problem.

There's no problem if that's being done. The problem is, in fact, that it is not being done by most. If you are doing it, then good luck with your sales, and thanks for the debate...

The unethical part is really capitalizing on the trend of the day at the cost of the consumer. Since this whole Atkins thing got nuts, many places have went with it, but the day McD's starts selling hamburgers with no buns, then expects you to then pay again if you want the bun added back in, will be the day McD's is done in the fast food market. This is the same thing...you may not be target of my rant...but I am positively sure of other companies who ARE doing this...intentionally...

 

[Vigilance]

Same goes for the single class model. As described in a post above, it's just wrong...at least in the sense of doing such by intentionally putting it out in smaller chunks first to garner more sales individually.

The only ethical duty any publisher has is to let people know what they're getting for their money. If you are putting out single class PDFs there's nothing unethical about it as long as the person knows when they buy it (based on your product description) that they are paying $1 (or $2 or whatever) for a single class.

There's nothing any more unethical about selling individual classes and then compiling them into whole books than there is about selling a single peanut butter cup for 50 cents but also selling 20 for 6 bucks.

If you buy 20 individually you end up spending a lot more, but that's the customer's decision.

The only duty the producer of the product has is to honestly inform you of what you are paying for.

Chuck

 

[philreed]

Phil, if you are releasing collections at the same time as your singles, and pricing it according to industry averages, then you are not the target of my rant. I don't know your particular publishing habits, as most of it is a genre I don't frequent as much as others.

I am doing it two ways.

1. Release singles and then collection.

2. Release collection and then singles.

There are two primary reasons that I release singles and then a collection.

1. It's easier for me to put the singles together as I work on concepts and ideas.

2. Customer input allows me to direct a line as it progresses. By reacting to the input and requests of gamer's as a line is produced I can improve it to better suit the needs of many.

 

[philreed]

Phil, if you are releasing collections at the same time as your singles, and pricing it according to industry averages, then you are not the target of my rant. I don't know your particular publishing habits, as most of it is a genre I don't frequent as much as others.

I am doing it two ways.

1. Release singles and then collection.

2. Release collection and then singles.

There are two primary reasons that I release singles and then a collection.

1. It's easier for me to put the singles together as I work on concepts and ideas.

2. Customer input allows me to direct a line as it progresses. By reacting to the input and requests of gamers as a line is produced I can improve it to better suit the needs of many.

 

[Man-thing]

Because these orders aren't for the exact same PDFs. People _like_ to mix and match. And usually completely different types of products...And when this happens we provide past customers with the collection at no charge.

Yes, we do enjoy mix and matching releases. I have a whack of d20 Modern from Ronin Arts even though my players have vowed to "never play modern"

Past customers also appreciate the major effort it was to update, revise and compile previous products like Forbidden Arcana and then distribute it to us free of charge.

I'm sure I could find a use for "A Dozen Pipecleaners" as well if Phillip or Michael writes it.

 

[Man-thing]

sorry, double post

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Here's a ring in from a customer who buys shorter PDFs and larger PDFs and really PDFs up and down the block.

I like the short ones. Not, I'll say, MORE than the long ones, but in general I've never gone: "Aw shucks, I jus' got played." after opening something up.

For my own part, I've purchased quite a few of RA's "101" and "13" PDFs dealing with occult matters because I needed some of what they had. "Man, I'd like some occult books for the PCs to pick up ..." so I grabbed 101 Occult Tomes. It was a great buy. Each was about 2-3 lines on a "real"/rumored occult book, some suggestions on play effects, and that was it. To compile it I'd have had to spend at least a few hours with my google-fu just to get a handful of books statted like that ... with the 101 book I could scan through, get an idea, and run with it. In a very very simple economic translation: The use-value for that book, for me, exceeded the price threshold. Or the time-cost of creating the data myself exceeded the price of the book.

It was a great buy for me. Would have I bought: "Ronin Arts: 1,001 Compiled Occult Paraphenalia And Rules Supplements" for 30 dollars? Probably not. I didn't NEED anything other than those books, so paying 30 dollars would have been a waste of my money.

I've purchased quite a few of RPGObject's PDFs, as well ... items like Blood and Space and Blood and Vigilance. For Blood and Vigilance, I also got quite a few classes in the book that I seriously didn't need. Did I feel jipped for having "bought" those classes? Not really. It just happened that they were there and I didn't need them. One of my players did eventually take a level in one of them, and would I have paid 1$ for that class for that player? Not really. That's me voting with my dollar, so it was a good choice for them to include those classes in the product. Blood and Space 2? I'm using EVERY class provided in the book for an upcoming game, so having those classes in there was a great buy for me.

But I never bought an RPGO Darwin's World PDF. Had no real need for them. My wife, however, picked up the HC compilation of Darwin's World 2 and fell in love with it. Me too. That product, I felt, worked best as a full sized hard cover and I voted with my dollar on it. Didn't buy those PDFs, bought that book.

For me, some products are best purchased in different formats. I don't NEED a bazillion compiled different kinds of occult items ... only one or two. So I bought one or two ... I didn't NEED one or two Post-Apocalyptic Gaming sups, I needed a whole book ... so I bought a whole book of them.

Not only is it not good business, it's taking advantage of a consumer's willingness to purchase sub-par products.

I don't think it's "taking advantage" of anybody. Is the phone company taking advantage of people willing to pay money to make phone calls when they could send a letter for 15 cents? Are cell phone companies taking advantage of people who are willing to pay money to make calls from outside of the home when they could get a landline for less money? It's about utility value to the individual consumer. If the company is making money with a certain product model ... and is the most popular and successfull company producing that product ... then I'd hazard a guess that far from being an unfair product model they've hit upon the FAIREST product model.

(Now, if Ronin Arts had copyrighted the small PDF and was deliberately running other PDF pubs out of business in order to make sure the ONLY PDF on the market was the short PDF ... maybe.)

If you've personally felt like you've been burned for purchasing a bunch of small PDFs that were later compiled ... talk directly to the publisher. From what I know about people like Phil and Chuck ... they're nice guys who really love the hobby. That's why they want to make a living with it ... they want to make a living doing what they love. And, while I can't make any promises, I bet they'd be willing to give you something to make it "right" and make you, the customer, happy ... why? Because the production model wasn't about bilking you or anybody else out of their money, but about providing product in a model which people wanted to buy it.

If somebody wants 10-12 of their classes, then they should wait a few months for all of the classes to get written, get done, and get compiled and put up. It's not about hitting you twice for the same information, it's about the fact that it takes TIME to write those classes ... why sit on 8 classes so you can make a book of 10 classes when 150 people want only 1-2 of those classes and 5 people want all 10? THAT makes no sense ... that's pleasing 5 people before you please 150 and sitting on profit that might make the difference between you having time to make alot more product and you having to get a different source of income that leaves little to no time for writing. So they release them as they get written and, when there's enough written to make a good compilation for the people that want to buy in bulk ... a compilation is born.

As I said: If you feel like you got burned, bring it up with the pub in a private email. Explain your situation: "Dude, I bought 10 of these things individually and then you released them together for 1/3 the price." I've never found the small publishers to be anything other than concerned for the happiness of their customers. And, now that you know how the product is produced, in the future you can wait for the compilation to come out instead of buying 10-15 of them at once ... you get what you want, and the people that only want 1 or 2 can get what they want. Win-win.

--fje

 

[jezter6]

It was a great buy for me. Would have I bought: "Ronin Arts: 1,001 Compiled Occult Paraphenalia And Rules Supplements" for 30 dollars? Probably not. I didn't NEED anything other than those books, so paying 30 dollars would have been a waste of my money.

Nope, you're right. There was a time not long ago where you could get that book for $5-7. Even at $10 it might be a good deal. Instead, now to get 1001 items you have to buy 20 PDF's, and spend the $30-40.

Why is the price being artificially raised so high? You said the one word that doesn't seem to ring clear in the consumer mind...PROFIT. Everyone says "don't get into the game developing biz to make money....we're doing it for the love of the game....etc." Guess what, people don't go into business to NOT get profit. And they should be paid for their work....but how did we go from a full 60 page document at $5 to 6 pages for $3.50??

How can we complain in one breath that WotC prices for $40 a book is 'too much' when we're willing to spend $40 on 15 pdf's which don't equate to half what you get in a gaming book?

The problem here is a major price spike and consumers are getting less content for the dollar. The problem is also people who are intentionally splitting up a $10 book to make it sell as $30 when sliced up in pieces. Phil may not be doing it. Louis may not be doing it. But is is being done.

And Chuck is nowhere near a target of my rants. Chuck and I do like to discuss this kind of stuff when I see him in the chat channel, but Chuck does tons of research, puts out a full book with bunches of classes...AND feats...AND new rules...AND fluff...for less than $10. How many of these '6 pagers' do you need to buy to get the same amount of content, and what is it costing? I'd wager that you're spending more money for less content.

 

[philreed]

but how did we go from a full 60 page document at $5 to 6 pages for $3.50??

Can you point me to these PDFs?

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Here's the thing:

If there's a particular publisher you'd like to call out about their pricing model, do so. That's part of the market system. If you're unhappy, talk about it. Which you're doing. But you're painting with a big broad brush and only retroactively taking people out of the crap-heap after somebody's argued for them.

Whoever it is releasing crappy sub-par products at 6 pages for 3.50, they're not making money hand over fist. At least not my money. If the process is abusive the problem will self-correct ONLY if it is a problem and ONLY if you use your rights as a consumer to not only not purchase their stuff, but tell the rest of us who they are and what they've done.

It's not rude to call them out. I'd wager it's far less rude to say: "Well, company X and Y and ZZ and W are doing this, I think it sucks." Than to basically paint all small-PDF publishers with the brush of money-grubbing profit-mongering evildooers out to STEAL OUR MONEY.

Personally I'd like to know who exactly you have a beef with so I can make sure to give their products a good eye before I buy them, if any of them are something I want to buy. If you complain out loud and in public and the company still does good business, then it might not be their price model.

Here's the thing: Your economic analysis is flawed. A 60 page product for 10 dollars isn't the same as a 30 page product for 7.50, isn't the same as a 3 page product for 2 dollars. You want to argue that people are "getting less for their dollar" but that's a highly simplified reading: So simplified, I'd hazard to say it's inherently wrong. Say I want WidgetRule Y. That's all I want. I'm willing to pay, oh, 2 dollars for this Widget. That's what I'm willing to pay. It takes up 4 pages to present to me WidgetRule Y. That's all it takes. So, at this point, I'm perfectly willing to pay 2 dollars for these 4 pages because they contain the thing that I want.

Now, let's say instead that you decide WidgetRule Y isn't enough for a 2 dollar product. Instead you write me a short story about it it and you contract somebody to draw 2 more pictures (when you might have had 1 picture). You decide to add to it WidgetRule X and Z, another thingie, this whazit, and, because it took longer to produce, offer this new 12 page product for 3 dollars. Am I saving money? The new product is much cheaper per-page than the first product. But I'm still buying it for WidgetRule Y. So, in reality, I'm paying MORE for what I want because I can't get just it, I have to buy other things along with it which raise the price by 33%.

And, I think, that's the reason alot of these small PDFs sell well. Take D20Future, for instance. I'm glad I never bought it for myself, and only borrowed a copy from somebody. WotC really pickled the pig with that one, in my consideration. There's way way too much stuff I don't need that's in there. I'd be paying five, six times the price-per-page for the USEFUL information because it's a book and not a PDF containing only the things that I need. I'd rather they have spent more time and page space on one thing, developed it, than trying to compile a whole load of other stuff into one book so I end up paying for so much I don't really want.

--fje