Dex vs. Str

[Randy]

Dex or not to Dex

Original Message:
Comparisons to real world fighting a la "Dex is more important to hit than pure raw strength". It's not true. Get a real sword or rapier (not these fencing wires = featherdusters) and try. To hit well (or at all), you need precise and controlled strikes, not whipping around. E.g. you need Strength. Dex striking will only damage your weapon and open you up for counter-attacks.

Just stop to imagine these strength fighters as blokes with baseball bats and you'll be fine.


MY Message:
I do own several swords and I know how to use them. And yes Dex does come into play with using a sword..... If it didnt it wouldnt be a sword it would be a club or a mace of some sort.... Those are two weapons that rely tottally on str to cause the damage. Think of it this way if you use total strength to hit something your not going to be hitting it in the best possible spot your just going to be hitting it.... If you use Dex to hit your going to be trying to find the best spot to hit to cause the damage instead of being a big brute and just trying to punch, club, or maul your way through.

Randy

 

[Celtavian]

... ranged attacks?

-Hyp.

Yep. Forgot to mention it.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Comparisons to real world fighting a la "Dex is more important to hit than pure raw strength". It's not true. Get a real sword or rapier (not these fencing wires = featherdusters) and try. To hit well (or at all), you need precise and controlled strikes, not whipping around. E.g. you need Strength. Dex striking will only damage your weapon and open you up for counter-attacks.

Swinging a sword like a baseball bat will only get you killed. I've watched and participated in one on one combat with weapons. You have to be rather quick to parry and counterstrike. You rarely get to use your full strength during combat. You are more often than not engaging in strikes and counterstrikes to slowly wear down and wound your opponent until you create an opening for a dehabilitating or lethal strike. It takes alot of endurance and dexterity to properly handle a sword without swinging once and leaving yourself open to attack if you miss.

Just stop to imagine these strength fighters as blokes with baseball bats and you'll be fine.

Sword fighting is not like this at all. It is a very refined art even in Europe, even amongst folk like the Vikings who often employed a sword and shield fighting style.

Strength is meaningless if you don't have the Dexterity to apply it. I am very strong, but I've had trouble striking smaller quicker people with equal combat training. Just as an example, I am 5'11", 290 lbs, bench press anywhere from 375 to 400 lbs depending on my cycle. I am a good deal stronger than about 90 to 95% of the best fighters in the history of the world, but I guarantee you that someone quicker will kick my ass with a weapon. Quick allows you strike and counterstrike much quicker than larger, stronger people who are not as quick.

In real life, strength gives a great advantage in grappling and damage resistance, or I sould say weight and size give a great advantage in grappling and damage resistance. I speak from experience in this case. But Strength alone does not grant a great advantage in weapon use or striking save that you can use a heavier weapon and strike with more power.

Most game systems use dexterity because it is considered hand-eye coordination. D&D has been using Strength so long they are probably loathe to change. Maybe 4th edition will finally make the move to Dex based combat, which I greatly hope they do.

 

[JoeBlank]

Thanks for the responses, Celtavian. I think your system sounds very fair and workable. I'll certainly consider it for future house rules.

I am still a little torn between the simple "free" Weapon Finesse feat for everyone vs. the option to use Dex or Str for melee attacks with any weapon. But more options sounds like a good enough reason to at least give your method a try.

 

[DarkMaster]

Strength is meaningless if you don't have the Dexterity to apply it. I am very strong, but I've had trouble striking smaller quicker people with equal combat training. Just as an example, I am 5'11", 290 lbs, bench press anywhere from 375 to 400 lbs depending on my cycle. I am a good deal stronger than about 90 to 95% of the best fighters in the history of the world, but I guarantee you that someone quicker will kick my ass with a weapon. Quick allows you strike and counterstrike much quicker than larger, stronger people who are not as quick.

.

Ok because you might be slower and unarmored. But put yourself in a full plate and your rapier guy in full plate and you will see how strenght is important to hit your opponet. The dex fighter will have a hard time going through your armor. The game take into account that most people are armored. therefore the strenght bonus is important to pierce the armor. If you want to use dex you would need to redefine the whole combat concept. You will need to use armor as DR bonus instead of AC bonus. But you would quickly realise that it will end up the same. The dex fighter would hit more often but most of his hit would be blocked by the opponent armor DR. The stronger fighter hit would on average damage more it's opponent.

Ex two 1st level fighter STR 18 DEX 10 with short sword and ARMOR DR4 AC10 hit on 13-20
against STR 10 DEX 18 same equipment AC14 hit on 9-20

only 1 out of 3 hit would damage the strong fighter and for only 1 or 2 dmg
all hit from the strong fighter would damage the dex fighter for 1-6 dmg

so the DEX fighter hit 20-25% of the time for 1.5 dmg on average = 0.33
and the STR figther hit 40% of the time for 3.5 dmg on average = 1.4
ration 1.44/0.33 = 4.36

using normal D&D
DEX figther hit 55% of the time for 3.5 dmg = 1.925
STR figther hit 50% of the time for 7.5 dmg = 3.75 dmg round
ratio = 1.94

Clearly the strong fighter is at an advantage in both case.

I think that a feat here is appropriate for the dex fighter to push it's fighting skill one notch above. In a DEX based game that feat would allow the striker to ignore the opponent DR => Therefore we need a feat to use dex instead of STR.

 

[Darklone]

Celtavian: The "mistake" lies not in the D&D system, but in the difference between their interpretation of strength and yours. The ability to strike fast and precise can be described by "strength" as well as dex, depending on your pov. There's no high speed combat without a lot of strength and no effective (in D&D term high damage) hit without the appropriate amount of control over your weapon.

Free Weapon Finesse, even for non-light weapons: see above, the game was not built that way for a reason.

 

[DarkMaster]

Celtavian: The "mistake" lies not in the D&D system, but in the difference between their interpretation of strength and yours. The ability to strike fast and precise can be described by "strength" as well as dex, depending on your pov. There's no high speed combat without a lot of strength and no effective (in D&D term high damage) hit without the appropriate amount of control over your weapon.

Free Weapon Finesse, even for non-light weapons: see above, the game was not built that way for a reason.

The AC concept is base around STR and the DEX concept is based around touch attack with DR armor. That is why a feat is required to use DEX in the AC concept

 

[Celtavian]

re

Celtavian: The "mistake" lies not in the D&D system, but in the difference between their interpretation of strength and yours. The ability to strike fast and precise can be described by "strength" as well as dex, depending on your pov. There's no high speed combat without a lot of strength and no effective (in D&D term high damage) hit without the appropriate amount of control over your weapon.

Dexterity is hand eye coordination and athleticism. Strength is brute strength. That is why giants and dragons are so strong, not because they have incredible muscle control. They are pure brutes.

Their interpretation of strength is the same as mine. They just use it for attack because it's a holdover from every edition of D&D kind of like the Lawful Good Paladin and level-based advancement.

Free Weapon Finesse, even for non-light weapons: see above, the game was not built that way for a reason.

What reason is that? Why don't you explain how such a modification is not possible using the d20 system? I use the rule of either Dex or Str as the primary modifier. I know with absolute certainty that it does not imbalance or have a negative effect on the game. It is very workable and doesn't penalize the already weaker dexterity based fighter. Even with this change, the Dex based fighter sorely lags behind the Great Cleaving, Power Attacking Str based Two-handed weapon using fighter.

If they decided to go to Dex for attack and Str for damage, it could easily be while maintaining balance with even greater verisimilitude. Easily.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Ok because you might be slower and unarmored. But put yourself in a full plate and your rapier guy in full plate and you will see how strenght is important to hit your opponet. The dex fighter will have a hard time going through your armor. The game take into account that most people are armored. therefore the strenght bonus is important to pierce the armor. If you want to use dex you would need to redefine the whole combat concept. You will need to use armor as DR bonus instead of AC bonus. But you would quickly realise that it will end up the same. The dex fighter would hit more often but most of his hit would be blocked by the opponent armor DR. The stronger fighter hit would on average damage more it's opponent.

Ex two 1st level fighter STR 18 DEX 10 with short sword and ARMOR DR4 AC10 hit on 13-20
against STR 10 DEX 18 same equipment AC14 hit on 9-20

only 1 out of 3 hit would damage the strong fighter and for only 1 or 2 dmg
all hit from the strong fighter would damage the dex fighter for 1-6 dmg

so the DEX fighter hit 20-25% of the time for 1.5 dmg on average = 0.33
and the STR figther hit 40% of the time for 3.5 dmg on average = 1.4
ration 1.44/0.33 = 4.36

using normal D&D
DEX figther hit 55% of the time for 3.5 dmg = 1.925
STR figther hit 50% of the time for 7.5 dmg = 3.75 dmg round
ratio = 1.94

Clearly the strong fighter is at an advantage in both case.

I think that a feat here is appropriate for the dex fighter to push it's fighting skill one notch above. In a DEX based game that feat would allow the striker to ignore the opponent DR => Therefore we need a feat to use dex instead of STR.

Yes, that is the same conclusion we have come to as well. The Str based fighter still has an advantage using our system just like in regular D&D, but the Dex based fighter doesn't have to waste a feat to use his dex modifier for attack. He can use weapons not normally finessable.

I incorporated the change to encourage variety. It doesn't make a Dex based fighter more powerful, just slightly more viable and variable. I like variety. I like Dex based fighters wielding two-handed swords. I like dex-based fighters with longswords and scimitars. I like dex based fighters even with axes if they so choose. I like character variety.

If the best option, the only truly worthy option, is a big, beastly fighter with a high strength, that means the Dex based fighter can wield only light weapons and will be in the shadow the big, burly Str based fighter. I like giving players options more for roleplaying and style than any kind of mechanical advantage.

 

[DarkMaster]

Well my point was that you cannot use both system. Using Dex based attack requires a change in the armor system in order to be consistent. Dex allow you to touch your opponent but that doesn't mean you go through the armor. If you use the AC system as is you must use STR as your primary to hit attributes. Another thing I don't like with that system is that it empowers rogues too much. In my group for example the rogue at first level would have been the best fighter of the group and usually rogues don't need a lot of STR to hit hard.

If you want to keep balance you need to decide wether you use a STR / AC system in which DEX based attack bonus requires an extra training "a feat". Or you use a DEX based system where a touch attack is enough to hit and DR for the armor.

Otherwise the thing becomes unbalanced. Even if the rogue is very dextrous and hit the warrior full plate all the time he needs to be able to penetrate it and without strengh a lot of training will be needed.

As for the best option being the strong armored two handed fighter, It is and it should be. Looking at history you quickly realised that the heavy armor didn't disapear because dextrous fighter wielding rapier overcame their armor. Projectile weapon made most armor almost useless on a battlefield, they were barely protecting you from guns and made you so much slower. Only Without the armor the dextrous fighter were able to shine.

And that is why the tank IMHO should still be the most valuable option.

Obviously if you don't care that much about balance then go ahead and house rule it.