Ive been trying to come up with a better way to use Dex for some types of melee combat...... Because some classes are just not well based with strength and are often pushed out of the encounters. Any suggestions on how to bring the higher dex then str people more into the encounter please offer them.
Dex vs. Str
- Thread starter Randy
- Start date
Liquidsabre
Explorer
Weapon Finesse for one. Why don't you tell us more about these high-dex, low-str characters in melee combat? Some examples might produce better advice for you.
UltimaGabe
First Post
I believe Weapon Finesse is the obvious choice- however, I think you're slightly changing the point here. Characters with low strength matched with classes with low BAB aren't meant to be in melee combat- plain and simple. It's possible to do, but if a Sorcerer could be as good in combat as a Fighter, why would anyone play a Fighter? Nobody is ever "forced" out of combat, as they all get combat-oriented abilities- everyone gets BAB, and even Wizards have touch spells. Some people are simply better at it. Several classes have their center around combat (Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers, just to name a few), and it would be unfair to any such characters to allow an easy and simple way to allow someone whose base isn't combat to even come close to matching the aforementioned classes' prowess without quite a bit of sacrifice. So going with something like Weapon Finesse is a good idea, but it's never going to make you as good at fighting as a Fighter. If you want to be good in combat, give yourself a good Strength score. Doesn't fit the class? So what? The game isn't made so that everyone plays their class exactly the same- be the Half-Orc Wizard. Be the Halfling Barbarian. But if you're going to 1. take a class that isn't centered around combat, and 2. put a low score into Strength (the main combat ability score), don't be surprised when your character isn't exceptional in hand-to-hand combat.
There are enough already.
Take two characters - with an 18 and a 10, one character with a high score in strength, the other with a high score in dexterity. Give them appropriate nonmagical equipment, and assume a +5 inherent bonus to their main attrbute. Assume both are Human and 20th level, just for giggles and gags.
Mr. Strong plays to his strengths (pardon the pun), and goes for - oh, let's keep it relatively simple, and say Barbarian(11)/Frenzied Berserker(9). His strength is 28 base after level and inherent bonus. Between greater rage and greater frenzy, he gets +16 strength, for a net of 54(+22). That's a totalof +42 to hit and +33 damage with a 2H weapon. He wears a suit of mithril full plate +5, which counts as medium armor to preserve the fast movement bonus from barbarian, thus has an AC of 24 (up to 28 if he can and does augment his dexterity sufficiently). He can power attack for -21/+60, giving him +22 to hit and +93 damage, at the most extreme - including an assumed Weapon Focus feat.
Mr. Agile, OTOH, goes for Fighter(10)/Duellist(10). His Dexterity is 38(+14) and he wears Bracers of Armor (+8). He fights with sword-and-shield with two shortswords and a buckler (+5, in fact), always fights defensively, and always uses his Improved Combat Expertise to the maximum level allowed; with weapon finesse, a +20 BAB, improved buckler defense, a +5 defending dagger in his off-hand, Improved Two-Weapon Defense, Dodge (a prerequisite for Duellist, IIRC), the maximum allowed ranks of Tumble, and the ICE/Fighting Defensively options above ... he has a +13 to hit and +2 damage (weapon specialisation: shortsword), and an Armor Class of 65 (including Dodge, two-weapon fighting penalties, and max benefot form the defender weapon)!!
So. If Mr. Strong and Mr. Agile get in a fight (and we ignore criticalhits, to keep my math simpler) - Mr. Strong will power attack for the maximum, all right - because he needs a natural 20 regardless of how much he does or doesn't apply! He has a 5% chance to hit each round, so will land one blow every ~20 swings, or one hit per ~5 rounds ... granted, that'll be a KILLINg blow when it lands, but it won't hit very often.
Mr. Agile, OTOH, only needs to roll an 11 or higher to connect. Sure, Mr. Agile is only dealing 1d6+2 per attack - but with access to Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, he has 7 attacks per round, needing to roll 11/11//16/16//20/20//20. That's 50%, 50%, 25%, 25%, 5%, 5%, and 5% - that's an 88% chance to land at least one blow per turn, and decent odds to hit *multiple* times in a round. Only a few points will get through the DR, but that's a guaranteed few points per hit, for probably 2-3 hits per round. I'd guess net damage per round will come to the 6-10 range, which means an average of 30-50 in the time the strong-man needs to land his one blow.
Now, at 20th level, we're talking about a pretty close-to-reasonably-even match - the dexterity fighter hits more often, but for piddling damage ... the strength fighter hits rarely, but for truly devastating amounts of damage, probably killing or half-killing his foe outright on the first blow. Throw in criticals, and the gap narrows in fact - more dice rolled, easier to connect ... the dexterity fighter will get and confirm more crtical hits (and yes, he *needs* them).
Now consider, that high dexterity also means you likely have the initiative; enhancements to strength up the agility fighter's damage dramatically (a simple belt of +6 strength is +3 damage *per hit*, which is potentially a lot of extra damage with his odds of hitting. The agility fighter can also do some early damage with ranged combat before closing to melee, too.
And if hte agility fighter plays it smart, he won't *go* for those full attacks - he'll attack, then Tumble away (with just 10 ranks of tumble and his +14 dexterity modifier, that's a +24 to his roll ... !). Throw in spring attack if you like, though it's not neccessary IMO.
And the whole thing changes yet again if you drop the two-weapon schtick and specialisation, go with Rogue/Duellist, and pick up a spiked chain. ^_^
...
With all that said ... I think the roblem lays in when a dexterity fighter also wants to be a high-damage fighter. That's wrong-headed thinking; Dexterity is for DEFENSE and DISTANCE. Strength is for high-damage-output tactics.
Take two characters - with an 18 and a 10, one character with a high score in strength, the other with a high score in dexterity. Give them appropriate nonmagical equipment, and assume a +5 inherent bonus to their main attrbute. Assume both are Human and 20th level, just for giggles and gags.
Mr. Strong plays to his strengths (pardon the pun), and goes for - oh, let's keep it relatively simple, and say Barbarian(11)/Frenzied Berserker(9). His strength is 28 base after level and inherent bonus. Between greater rage and greater frenzy, he gets +16 strength, for a net of 54(+22). That's a totalof +42 to hit and +33 damage with a 2H weapon. He wears a suit of mithril full plate +5, which counts as medium armor to preserve the fast movement bonus from barbarian, thus has an AC of 24 (up to 28 if he can and does augment his dexterity sufficiently). He can power attack for -21/+60, giving him +22 to hit and +93 damage, at the most extreme - including an assumed Weapon Focus feat.
Mr. Agile, OTOH, goes for Fighter(10)/Duellist(10). His Dexterity is 38(+14) and he wears Bracers of Armor (+8). He fights with sword-and-shield with two shortswords and a buckler (+5, in fact), always fights defensively, and always uses his Improved Combat Expertise to the maximum level allowed; with weapon finesse, a +20 BAB, improved buckler defense, a +5 defending dagger in his off-hand, Improved Two-Weapon Defense, Dodge (a prerequisite for Duellist, IIRC), the maximum allowed ranks of Tumble, and the ICE/Fighting Defensively options above ... he has a +13 to hit and +2 damage (weapon specialisation: shortsword), and an Armor Class of 65 (including Dodge, two-weapon fighting penalties, and max benefot form the defender weapon)!!
So. If Mr. Strong and Mr. Agile get in a fight (and we ignore criticalhits, to keep my math simpler) - Mr. Strong will power attack for the maximum, all right - because he needs a natural 20 regardless of how much he does or doesn't apply! He has a 5% chance to hit each round, so will land one blow every ~20 swings, or one hit per ~5 rounds ... granted, that'll be a KILLINg blow when it lands, but it won't hit very often.
Mr. Agile, OTOH, only needs to roll an 11 or higher to connect. Sure, Mr. Agile is only dealing 1d6+2 per attack - but with access to Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, he has 7 attacks per round, needing to roll 11/11//16/16//20/20//20. That's 50%, 50%, 25%, 25%, 5%, 5%, and 5% - that's an 88% chance to land at least one blow per turn, and decent odds to hit *multiple* times in a round. Only a few points will get through the DR, but that's a guaranteed few points per hit, for probably 2-3 hits per round. I'd guess net damage per round will come to the 6-10 range, which means an average of 30-50 in the time the strong-man needs to land his one blow.
Now, at 20th level, we're talking about a pretty close-to-reasonably-even match - the dexterity fighter hits more often, but for piddling damage ... the strength fighter hits rarely, but for truly devastating amounts of damage, probably killing or half-killing his foe outright on the first blow. Throw in criticals, and the gap narrows in fact - more dice rolled, easier to connect ... the dexterity fighter will get and confirm more crtical hits (and yes, he *needs* them).
Now consider, that high dexterity also means you likely have the initiative; enhancements to strength up the agility fighter's damage dramatically (a simple belt of +6 strength is +3 damage *per hit*, which is potentially a lot of extra damage with his odds of hitting. The agility fighter can also do some early damage with ranged combat before closing to melee, too.
And if hte agility fighter plays it smart, he won't *go* for those full attacks - he'll attack, then Tumble away (with just 10 ranks of tumble and his +14 dexterity modifier, that's a +24 to his roll ... !). Throw in spring attack if you like, though it's not neccessary IMO.
And the whole thing changes yet again if you drop the two-weapon schtick and specialisation, go with Rogue/Duellist, and pick up a spiked chain. ^_^
...
With all that said ... I think the roblem lays in when a dexterity fighter also wants to be a high-damage fighter. That's wrong-headed thinking; Dexterity is for DEFENSE and DISTANCE. Strength is for high-damage-output tactics.
Bauglir
First Post
Pax: The strength fighter's attack routine is at +42/+42/+37/+32/+27 right?
Supreme power attack seems like a better choice than greater rage for sheer attack power - so if we tweak that to Barb10/FB10 the basic attack routine (assume a greatsword for simplicity) becomes +41/+41/+36/+31/+26 (2d6+31)
With PA: +21/+21/+16/+11/+6 (2d6+111) - Avg damage on a hit then is 118
Note that since the str fighter needs a 20 to hit anyway he might as well PA fully.
Therefore expected damage per round = ((1.05*118)*0.05)*5 = 30.975 dam/rnd
Next up the dex fighter: his +2 damage is neatly cancelled by the barbarian's DR 2/-, so his average damage on a hit is 3.5
Expected damage/round = (((1.1*3.5)*0.5)*2) + (((1.1*3.5)*0.25)*2) + (((1.05*3.5)*0.05))*3) = 3.85+1.925+0.55125 = 6.32625 dam/rnd - nice estimate, Pax
So the strength fighter seems to be significantly more effective.
(Disclaimer: I have a talent for making very stupid calculation mistakes
)
On a more subjective level I find defense based classes to be generally weaker in a party scenario - an astronomical AC does little good when the enemy decides to ignore your piddling damage output and go kill the casters instead. Naturally YMMV
Supreme power attack seems like a better choice than greater rage for sheer attack power - so if we tweak that to Barb10/FB10 the basic attack routine (assume a greatsword for simplicity) becomes +41/+41/+36/+31/+26 (2d6+31)
With PA: +21/+21/+16/+11/+6 (2d6+111) - Avg damage on a hit then is 118
Note that since the str fighter needs a 20 to hit anyway he might as well PA fully.
Therefore expected damage per round = ((1.05*118)*0.05)*5 = 30.975 dam/rnd
Next up the dex fighter: his +2 damage is neatly cancelled by the barbarian's DR 2/-, so his average damage on a hit is 3.5
Expected damage/round = (((1.1*3.5)*0.5)*2) + (((1.1*3.5)*0.25)*2) + (((1.05*3.5)*0.05))*3) = 3.85+1.925+0.55125 = 6.32625 dam/rnd - nice estimate, Pax
So the strength fighter seems to be significantly more effective.
(Disclaimer: I have a talent for making very stupid calculation mistakes
)On a more subjective level I find defense based classes to be generally weaker in a party scenario - an astronomical AC does little good when the enemy decides to ignore your piddling damage output and go kill the casters instead. Naturally YMMV
Ranger REG
Explorer
But Dex also governs your initiative, your defense (AC), your Reflex saving throws, and your Dex-based skills. Str is now reduced to damage and Str-based skill.Tetsubo said:
IOW, you just made Dex an even more important attribute than the others.
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Pax said:
Ten levels of Duellist, just for Elaborate Parry and Deflect Arrows?
-Hyp.
Darklone
Registered User
I suppose Elusive Target would spoil the Power Attack fun of Mr. Strong.
About Dex-to-hit-instead-of-strength: Please. Not again. Check the houserules section and the general sections for old rants and flamewars about this topic.
Mr. Agile: Did you take into account the -1 to hit for wearing the buckler? And why should he tumble away and use Spring Attack if he's better at trading full attack actions?
About Dex-to-hit-instead-of-strength: Please. Not again. Check the houserules section and the general sections for old rants and flamewars about this topic.
Mr. Agile: Did you take into account the -1 to hit for wearing the buckler? And why should he tumble away and use Spring Attack if he's better at trading full attack actions?
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