Diabolism: Q&A, comments, etc

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I've been asked a few questions about Diabolism, in other threads and forums, as well as a few in AIM conversations with people that talk to me there as well.

So I wanted to open up the floor to questions, comments, and general conversation.

If anybody has a question about how things work, how I THINK they should work, what I was intending for this or that, or how they can do other things with it, feel free to ask.

Heck, if you've got a rough idea of some way you want to mangle it to do something different, I'm interested too.

--fje

 

[Cheiromancer]

There seems to be a number of takes lately on skill based magic systems. I'm thinking of EoM:ME, but the flawed Epic handbook system is probably better known. So it is very interesting to see your take on the subject in Diabolism.

One thing that maybe I just missed when reading the pdf has to do with alternate ways of paying the costs of spells. Strain seems to be a side effect of casting, and that's ok, but the con points seem to be the kind of currency used- a kind of spell point system. I think the mechanics of ritual bloodletting work really well for a few of the spells (black binding and dread summons especially) but not so well with some of the others. For instance, if the diabolist is in a fight, the last thing he would want to do is cause himself Con damage. And if he wants to use Bend the Will for a casual seduction (or in order to abduct someone as prelude to sacrificing someone) it seems unlikely that he wants to pull out a knife and start cutting himself right there in the bar, or the street, or wherever.

I think there needs to be some way of building up an account with the dark powers that can be drawn upon as needed. Or a way of running up a "blood debt" that will be paid up later. Or a feat that gives them a "pool" of virtual con points (that replenish at the normal rate of 1/day) for use in emergencies. Or the possibility of having an ongoing relationship with a dark patron so that the blood cost can be waived (in exchange for ongoing services) or something of the sort.

****

Now with regard to the black binding- it seems to be that the boundary is effective in both directions. The fiend can't get in, nor can it get out. Is this mandatory? It would be nice to make a circle that the caster can stand in, that the fiend cannot penetrate. It would also be nice to make a diagram that a fiend can enter but can't leave. This would be especially useful to demon hunters! If this option were allowed, there would need to be some guidelines about concealing a diagram- i.e. by putting a rug over it.

Of course, such an option would seem to allow permanent wards to be made. Rooms that prevent fiends from entering them. Maybe that would be a good idea, especially for churches or similar areas. Or maybe there would be a proliferation of such things, which would lead to absurd game effects.

Thoughts?

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I'll start with Black Binding, since that's pretty simple.

I wanted Black Binding to have some of that "Old Magic" styling.

To that end, it is very much permanent. But -anything- on the outside can affect them, even an as-yet untrapped fiend.

Say there's a fiend we want to trap. He's a CR 1 Winged Imp, a small creature, so we craft a pretty standard Black Binding on a 5' square (his facing) using a package of table salt we found in the kitchen. This would take a full round action, and the Diabolist would need to have access to all 8 squares surrounding that 5' square in order to scribe.

Here's the thing, though. If that Black Binding is completed, the fiend won't be able to pass into OR out of it, though from the outside he could disturb the diagram.

This, honestly, was a balance decision on my part. Black Binding is one of the most useful Diabolism spells for heroes, and if you're making a campaign based around demon hunters and demons, it would be a "Must Have" if you could set up Bindings that a fiend couldn't see, but could be trapped by, without the heroes neccesarily even being in the same state. You could, for instance, set up the most powerful Black Binding possible in your bedroom, then go on vacation and come back to find you've got a Blade Fiend trapped in there and at your mercy.

Same with making a diagram that the caster can stand in that the fiend cannot penetrate. In fiend-heavy games, suddenly everybody wants ranks in Black Binding (and a level of Dedicated for Skill Emphasis, to boot). Since there's no duration, you could scribe a diagram around yourself and hang out until you were healed up and ready to rock, or the fiend got bored and left. (That was the first thing somebody wanted to do, actually: Bind himself and then hit the fiend with Wrack until it stuck.)

The idea that the magic is contained within the diagram itself also extends to seeing the diagram. The diagram has to be unobstructed to function. So, say, you put a 10' rug over a 5' diagram. That diagram wouldn't function. If the diagram were made of salt or chalk, I'd even rule that putting the rug over the diagram would ruin it. Now, if you made that diagram out of inlaid cherry as part of the hardwood floor, you could definately put a rug over it and pull the rug off and leave the diagram undisturbed. If something is lying across the diagram in such a way as to break any line (or all lines) it is ruined. EDIT: One thing I thought of adding, but never did. Key Stones. A way of doing this is allowing a binding diagram to be set up "beforehand" but one aspect left unfinished. Finishing the diagram takes at least a Full Round Action, and the skill check isn't made until that finisher. This allows for situations where you have a strong pre-prepared diagram that you unfurl at the last moment, but the magic has to be completed to function (so the Diabolist has to have his pants in the wind, so to speak, and provoke AoOs and possible disruption to finish). Take that inlaid cherry diagram ... perhaps you keep a rug over it and there's a small wooden keystone missing that you can slide in place and invoke the spell after you whip aside the rug.

We wanted Black Binding to be useful, but dangerous. You can bind a fiend, but you have to find a way to keep him busy while you draw the diagram. Here's something I wanted to add. I strongly encourage GMs to check out the "Creature Weaknesses" section of the d20Modern book/SRD. The rules are there in the book, but I should have pointed out how those rules would interact with something like Black Binding. Researching creatures is already part and parcel of Diabolism, and a smart demon hunter knows his foe. If the GM decides to add a particular Weakness to a demon, that gives the heroes something to do to keep it busy while they scribe.

Say our GM has decided that Winged Imps have an obsession with Mirrors. If they see themselves in a mirror, it functions as a Moderate Fascination weakness. We've got our salt, a pocket mirror, and a spare bedroom ... time to set a trap! Let's say our heroes are Bob and Larry James: Demon Hunters. Bob is the muscle, Larry is the Diabolist. Both of them Hide in the spare bedroom, and Bob readies an action to present the mirror when the Winged Imp enters the room and reaches the center. Eventually, by making a little noise perhaps, the pair are able to draw the imp to the room. It enters, fails its spot checks, and decides to investigate (being a bit of a thickie). When it gets near the center of the room, Bob springs out and presents the mirror. The imp sees itself and fails its Will save (DC 15). It is fascinated. Larry jumps out and uses the time to make a quick and dirty Black Binding around the imp (DC 15, -4 penalty for speed). We'll assume that Larry is pretty good, so he succeeds. Now Bob can remove the mirror and the pair has a captured imp ...

So your impression was my impression (and experience). A permanent protective ward would lead to situations that would make, essentially, fiends an utterly useless foe. The heroes would always have a house totally warded, or they'd ward their car when they got out, or ward the first room they cleared in a demon hunt and use it to fall back to if they got in trouble.

I think a ward is a good idea, in that alot of people will ask for it ... but here's my thoughts.

One, I've got a ward coming up in another SFX Skills product. It works differently, and not as "absolutely", allowing saves and such so that fiends aren't just stopped cold.

Two, in playtest, I hadn't found a way to do it that didn't make for a be-all, end-all fiend-fighting tactic. Remember that we've got Wrack to work with as well, which can really turn the tide in a fight. Using Diabolism as fire for fighting fires should have an aura of danger and horrible cost to it. Even with the best of intentions, it's DARK magic. Bad mojo.

I had contemplated such a ward as a Rank-Based Benefit, but never did quite get it "right" so I never even put it in the manuscript.

Hope that helps without causing even more questions.

--fje

 

[Cheiromancer]

That makes a lot of sense, thanks.

Still... Vampires cannot enter a home uninvited. People put horseshoes over their doors (against fey, perhaps?), or crosses. Some people used to write Hex signs on their barns as a protection against witchcraft. Fiends are often unable to enter holy places or tread on consecrated ground. So there needs to be some other kind of warding- maybe just not black binding. And I have the definite impression that medieval scholars who dabbled in such things would stand in a diagram of their own.

How effective all these things is unclear, but there should be some provision for why people might try them.

Another question: suppose someone has less than an hour to make the diagram, but has more than a few rounds. How long do you have to draw a diagram so the penalty is only -1 or -2 or -3?

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

Still... Vampires cannot enter a home uninvited. People put horseshoes over their doors (against fey, perhaps?), or crosses. Some people used to write Hex signs on their barns as a protection against witchcraft. Fiends are often unable to enter holy places or tread on consecrated ground. So there needs to be some other kind of warding- maybe just not black binding. And I have the definite impression that medieval scholars who dabbled in such things would stand in a diagram of their own.

Most of those sound like examples of true faith or white magic, rather than Diabolism. Things like that might be covered in the Enochian supplement.


One quick question. What is the range of creatures effected by Diabolism, is it just fiends, or does it extend to other evil Outsiders? For example, would Efreeti be a legitimate target for a Middle Eastern Diabolist?

 

[jaerdaph]

First off, I really enjoyed this and look forward to seeing more SFX Skills PDFs like this. I think you did an excellent job presenting different options for using this too. It's perfect for a d20 Modern Dark•Matter game, or any d20 Modern horror game in general.

Here's my thoughts/questions etc.

Class vs. Cross-Class (p. 3) - Do you plan on creating an SFX Adept Advanced Class at some point (much like the Modern Psychic AdC from GR's The Psychic's Handbook)? Any suggestions for what sort of existing AdCs might have SFX Skills as class skills? Obviously using the existing d20 Modern FX AdCs defeats the purpose of moving to a skill and feat based magic system.

Strain as Ability Damage (p. 5) - rather than limiting this to just Str (or just Con), have you considered using the other Ability scores too and assigning one type of closely related Ability damage to each SFX skill instead (again, similar to The Psychic's Handbook)?

Dabbler feat(p. 6) - Benefit: You may substitute Dabbler for SFX Aptness and one other SFX skill as prerequisites for learning one SFX Skill. Did you mean one other SFX feat?

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Alright. "Stored up" Sacrifice is still on my mind, but I'm on a run with this topic so ...

Still... Vampires cannot enter a home uninvited. People put horseshoes over their doors (against fey, perhaps?), or crosses. Some people used to write Hex signs on their barns as a protection against witchcraft. Fiends are often unable to enter holy places or tread on consecrated ground. So there needs to be some other kind of warding- maybe just not black binding. And I have the definite impression that medieval scholars who dabbled in such things would stand in a diagram of their own.

How effective all these things is unclear, but there should be some provision for why people might try them.

My answer to this is two-fold.

One, there will definately be a specific demon-ward SFX Skill, but that one is saved for the white magic themed SFX (those being Enochian Theurgy and Monotheism, which share a few skills with some thematic and power-level changes). That Skill can actually be used to create 1+ YEAR long wards, though at higher levels (it's a Rank 12 benefit, meaning it can only be accessed by Adepts).

Two, alot of those folkloric wards actually make appearances in my own Occult games via the above-mentioned Creature Weaknesses rules in d20 Modern. In one game, the investigators were on the tail of some Unseelie Pooka. They were able to discover that Unseelie Fey aften have a strongly negative reaction to Jack-o-Lanterns (an Easily Resistible Aversion to pumpkin-based lanterns and a Moderate Aversion to turnip lanterns).

What I did, however, was put an add-hoc XP adjustment on encounters involving creatures with well-known and easily produced Weaknesses. This was just -% = DC ... so when the group broke down the door and attacked the Pooka with lanterns in hand, I quietly added a -10% XP adjustment to the encounter. I didn't SAY anything about it, but the weakness rules weren't all that well integrated in Modern (while being quite smart). They seem intended to make encounters "doable" for low-FX games where the GM might want to toss the PCs up against a creature with DR 5/Magic ... without magic. By adding a Weakness, he can run the encounter as-normal, giving the PCs a fighting chance. Since the PCs also had access to iron weapons to bypass their fey DR, the pumpkins were just icing.

Another question: suppose someone has less than an hour to make the diagram, but has more than a few rounds. How long do you have to draw a diagram so the penalty is only -1 or -2 or -3?

My gut reaction is to say, well, regardless it is -4. My game-balance decisions are based on opportunity costs. Really, the hour vs rounds decision was one of: "Weeeeeeeell, this should take a long time, but if you don't have a long time, you can still do it but you take a penalty." ... and those times worked in testing. For instance, I would assume it takes somewhat more than 1 hour to put together an interlocking ring of engraved stones. But I didn't want to belabor the point, and I really needed to give some hard times for things so people purchasing and using the book could point to a paragraph and say: "There, that's what it says you can do."

If I've got 59 minutes, do I take a -4? -3? -0? I would SAY, "Eyeball it." If you've got almost an hour, but need to shave off a few rounds ... don't bother with a penalty. Maybe this:

1 Minute - 29 Minutes = -4
30 Minutes - 59 Minutes = -2
59.1 - 1 Hour+ = -0

This is sticking to the good ole d20 2-point step, and splitting the difference, for simplicity. Remember, my intent was for this to feel like Old Magic ... that bones-deep sympathetic magic that works for reasons of its own. So, really, the argument could be made that, for strange and utterly arcane reasons, deviating at all from either standard is impossible ... Really, it balanced out because, from what I saw, PCs either had Very Little Time or At Least An Hour ... I.E. either Action Time or Story Time in which to perform the magic.

--fje

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

One quick question. What is the range of creatures effected by Diabolism, is it just fiends, or does it extend to other evil Outsiders? For example, would Efreeti be a legitimate target for a Middle Eastern Diabolist?

Oh, indeed. I would say that just about anything any culture would consider a malevolent demon would be Diabolism-ready. Because this was written primarily as a d20Modern product (though obviously using other rules, like D&D style subdual), I just used "Fiends" as the most obvious d20M evil outsider type that fit the system for theme.

Japanese Oni, Efreet, etc.

For instance, I would say that if you had a campaign setting in which Evil Elementals were the primary and only "evil extradimensional creatures", that slotting them in to Diabolism would be right on target.

--fje

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Class vs. Cross-Class (p. 3) - Do you plan on creating an SFX Adept Advanced Class at some point (much like the Modern Psychic AdC from GR's The Psychic's Handbook)? Any suggestions for what sort of existing AdCs might have SFX Skills as class skills? Obviously using the existing d20 Modern FX AdCs defeats the purpose of moving to a skill and feat based magic system.

At some point, yes.

Honestly, my editor seems to bring up the SFX Adept every time we talk about SFX Skills. And I've got one ... but, in playtest, it started doing wonky things to balance.

Now, at the time, I hadn't yet instituted Rank-Based Benefits. Originally, what appeared as RBBs were just things you could do with increased DCs. But, taking into account various ways a wily player can pump up skill checks (including lots and lots of levels in Dedicated for Skill Emphasis ) ... the moment a character could start taking 1-1 ranks and full Max Ranks, he was busting out pretty powerful effects at lvl5. Instantly, it seemed. Levels 1-3, the magic trickled out ... once he hit 4th and took the AdC he shot ahead in power.

Now, it's not really a PROBLEM, but the GM needs to realize what's going to happen. This is why I hadn't released the AdC as a web enhancement or in an appendix to every SFX Skill product, because I foresaw a few problems if -I- had some problems with it. Even with 4 Skill Points/Lvl, the smart player can wrap that AdC around the power stick and beat your campaign to pieces with it ... it's pretty much high magic.

It has alot to do with the way Cross-Class and Class skills work. I really like the system, but it's VERY binary. Cross-Class skills lag far far behind because of the 1/2-max caps ... the difference isn't all that noticable at 1st or 2nd ... but at 3rd you're at 3 ranks and your first RBB and the other guy at 6 ranks and his 2nd. Between 3rd and 9th level you don't get another RBB while the guy at full ranks gets his 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th (generally capping out each skill in abilities and regularly hitting DC 20 or so without much trouble).

So "As Is" is the low-low magic setting ... and the SFX Adept AdC is the high magic setting ... and I want to give everybody a few steps in between before I unleash the SFX Adept, because that binary isn't going to work for everybody. (Which is to say, I'm in process writing feats and playtesting to allow people to tweak settings in between).

Strain as Ability Damage (p. 5) - rather than limiting this to just Str (or just Con), have you considered using the other Ability scores too and assigning one type of closely related Ability damage to each SFX skill instead (again, similar to The Psychic's Handbook)?

Let me consult my notes on this ...
For my purposes, truthfully, we wanted to keep the "preamble" as short as possible ... packing in the most usable data in the smallest space.

Why? Price to value. The rules for using SFX Skills is reproduced with each SFX Skills product. While I'm under an NDA, I think I'm safe in saying that the folks at Sleep Dep have one of their founding principles in Most Bang for the Buck. The fact that later SFX Skills products are reproducing those 4 pages is one reason that SFX Skills: Diabolism appeared at 1.95$ while similarly sized products often have much higher price tags. We don't want anybody to feel cheated when they buy SFX Skills: Enochian Theurgy and scroll down 4 pages.

It was one of MY design philosophies that each SFX SKills product be stand-alone in nature. You could, for instance, use every single one I produce with the limits cranked down and only perhaps 1-2 characters EVER showing up with a particular tradition for a broad-base low-magic campaign. Or you could make an entire campaign around Diabolism and Enochian Theurgy. Or a whole campaign with Vodoun and no other. Etc etc etc.

So ... you could definately have each skill sap a different ability score, but I decided rather early on that it was maybe a little person-specific for me to make it one of the standards I went in depth about ... and I didn't want to just add: "Or you could have each one sap a different ability score." I suppose I COULD, but one of my favorite alternate magic systems is d20 Call of Cthulhu, in which each spell sapped a different ability score, and for different amounts ... I had a desire to do that with SFX Skills ... but it would add alot of extra work on the back-end for me ... Black Binding should require 1d4 Int, while Brimstone is 1d6 Dex ... or maybe Black Binding is 2 Int, and Brimstone is 1 Str. Etc etc.

Though you HAVE given me something else to think about adding to my planned SFX Meta-Product ...

Dabbler feat(p. 6) - Benefit: You may substitute Dabbler for SFX Aptness and one other SFX skill as prerequisites for learning one SFX Skill. Did you mean one other SFX feat?

Holy crud. Yes, that's exactly what it was supposed to say. I actually remember FIXING that typo, but somewhere we must have switched a manuscript version that regressed it. Consider that official errata. The purpose of Dabbler is to allow a PC to have access to 1 SFX Skill ... to access that he has to have SFX Aptness and ________ SFX, which Dabbler stands in for on that single skill.

Dabbler is the REALLY LOW Magic setting. You could, conceivably, have a campaign in which only Dabbler was available for getting magic ... giving most magical characters only a few spells, ever. It's also useful for, well, Dabblers. A little Black Binding here, a little Wards and Obviations there ... ...

--fje

 

[Cheiromancer]

Sounds like the features I am looking for will get covered- just not in diabolism. Which makes sense. Black magic should be like a knife without a handle- hard to use without harm to yourself. Adding lots of wards and protections is off theme.

The purpose of Dabbler is to allow a PC to have access to 1 SFX Skill ... to access that he has to have SFX Aptness and ________ SFX, which Dabbler stands in for on that single skill.

Do you mean that single feat?