Diagonal wonkiness scenarios

[Will]

From the poll thread (since arguing on it is a bit off topic):

1-1-1-1 is Fun, Fun, Fun, Fun!

Seriously I like the simplification. It will make it easier to eyeball movement on the game table and speed up play. I don't even mind the Firecube.

Eyeballing is exactly my problem with 1-1-1-1.

Hong: I've played Civ. I don't play it now.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I don't think you have. I believe Rystil understands quite well how the rules would be adjucated if he were playing in a non-Euclidean space. However, he does not want to play in a non-Euclidean space. I can't say I blame him. Thinking in a non-Euclidean space is hard, and thinking in a hybrid of Euclidean and non-Euclidean space leads to contradictions like those discussed so far.

You are correct. BTW, I also agree that "must be a Minkowski space" overstates the position (although Minkowski space is actually a 'real' space in relativity whereas Chebyshev is a synthetic space that is more difficult to imagine from the perspective of existing within it because it physically cannot exist in our natural world--the look and curvature of such a world would be like going to the Far Realms)--I only mentioned it because I brought it to a guy who is better than me at Topology--I explained to him the situation, and he told me a Minkowski space would work.

But anyway, yeah, you have stated my position perfectly.

EDIT: Wow, that just gave me an awesome idea--I can use 1-1-1-1-1 diagonals when the players are in the Far Realms (or even just the Elemental Chaos or something) to indicate the otherworldly wrongness.

 

[Sir Sebastian Hardin]

On the game table, the room is a 5x5 square. The blast description says it affects a 5x5 square. What's nonsensical about that?

What about a Prysmatic sphere or a fireball?
The burst description says it affects a 5x5 square, and it is supposed to be a sphere.

 

[Will]

I'm reminded of Willy Wonka and the cubes that look round.

 

[keterys]

It's probably worth noting that having to think about the math of moving (which 1-2-1-2 requires for almost everyone, even if they don't want to admit it) breaks your sense of immersion. Any time in which you have to think about the rules of the game, really. It's the biggest flaw in rules for simulation - it might be accurate to have a bevy of modifiers like so:

Attack Roll:
Base +18
Sweaty Grip -1
Unstable Footing (Cobblestone) -1
Opponent's Gaze is focused 30 degrees off +1
Mild Crossbreeze -1
Fighting Off a Cold -2
Lunch Was Too Spicy -1
Slept at a Holiday Inn Express +2
Etc.

But tracking the modifiers would not only detract from overall gameplay by taking time, but also make it impossible to divorce the mind enough from the game to immerse oneself in it.

I'd advise everyone who finds '1-1-1-1' to break their suspension of disbelief to play with it for two sessions (preferably without actively trying to ruin your enjoyment by focusing on it). Worst case scenario, it will provide you more ammo for these debates and you can say "I've played it, and it bugged me horribly."

I'll admit I didn't give 2-2-2-2 a full chance... only 1 session... but yeah, I really didn't like how it played out. I like hexes fine in play, but not when drawing maps so I could probably live with them for homebrew games and less so for modules unless the modules were hex-based. I've played 1-1-1-1 and 1-2-1-2 both for months (or years), and can play either way. 1-1-1-1 has notable play advantages and after a couple 'What the' moments, it no longer bothers me, not even a little.

 

[HeinorNY]

So far, what I've learned about 4E wonkiness is that square rooms are actually round rooms, fireballs are actually fireboxes, reptiles have breasts and when you are tired you start to bleed, but if you play chess, Civilization and WoW, there is no reason to feel odd about all that.

 

[Will]

I'd like to point out that I have no particular animosity toward those promoting/enjoying/enduring 1-1-1-1, and none toward the designers; it seems like a decision that will make a number of people fairly happy.

(Except for Hong. He's the devil)

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Honestly, unless you're somewhere on the OCD spectrum, I predict if you play with it for, say, 4-5 hours of actual combat, you'll get so used to it you won't notice it anymore.

Maybe. Maybe not. I agree that it has to do with how one's brain works, but I don't think it has to do with OCD.

I'm pretty sure you're aware, Ian, that I tested DDM08 for several hours before this rule drove me from the game. Some people just have different emphases in what they perceive. I perceive illogical constructions -- verbal, spatial, and temporal -- almost as if they're surrounded with some kind of aura. I just can't not see them. It's what allowed me to excel in law school, but obviously has its downsides, too. I was excited for DDM08 -- as I'm sure you remember -- and for 4E ... and the disappointment was pretty depressing.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

On the game table, the room is a 5x5 square. The blast description says it affects a 5x5 square. What's nonsensical about that?

It depends on whether that 5x5 room is drawn on the diagonals or not.

If not, a 5x5 room can contain 25 orcs. A 2-square burst -- which does in fact affect a 5x5 area -- targeting the center of the room will affect all of them.

If the room is drawn on the diagonals, the 5x5 room can contain over 40 orcs. And a 2-square burst -- which affects a 5x5 area -- targeting the center of the room will only affect 25 of them.

Because of 1-1-1-1 diagonals, a room that is drawn on the diagonals is fully twice as large as a room drawn orthogonally, and a spell area that affects a 5x5 square area is a different size than a 5x5 square room.

Note that so far WotC's solution -- see the Greenbriar Chasm Dungeoncraft -- is to either not design diagonal rooms in an encounter area, or "subtly" switch the grid orientation in mid-passage so that rooms that appear to be diagonal actually aren't. Pretty slick, especially as it was done with absolutely no acknowledgment.

 

[Creamsteak]

EDIT: Wow, that just gave me an awesome idea--I can use 1-1-1-1-1 diagonals when the players are in the Far Realms (or even just the Elemental Chaos or something) to indicate the otherworldly wrongness.

I kinda like that idea.