D&D General Did D&D Die with TSR?

[darjr]

Also feats stood in for a few things that were cumbersome in 2e but some of the ideas were there. The same with skills. 3e compared to its contemporaries is a very different game it also makes D&Ds heritage clearer. Also didn’t the 3.0 PHB lack a grid for the combat examples?

 

[Stormonu]

There's always someone to say that D&D died with X edition.

Considering that 3E came out with a conversion guide on the day of release, I wouldn't say D&D died there. It was a revolution moreso than an evolution, but it was mostly a beneficial codification and reorganization of the rules.

As to your list:

Here are some of the biggest differences that I was hung up on when first learning 3rd edition:
1) tactical movement on a grid [I used this back to the day when I first got into D&D back in about '80]
2) attacks of opportunity (for nearly everything) [Again, used as far back as AD&D at least, just named]
3) feats [Now those were new]
4) class "balance" [in older editions, different XP to level was the balancing point. 3E had trouble overall with balance, especially past 6th level or so - fighters drool and wizards are cool & codzilla and all that]
5) Challenge Rating [old editions used HD/XP to sorta try and sort things out by difficulty, this was new though]
6) 0-level spells, cantrips, and ever-present spells [0-level/cantrips go as far back as Unearthed Arcana in 1E]
7) prestige classes
8) the d20 DC system for skills (that took away all DM rulings, as everything was codified) [this was an evolution of non-weapon proficiencies, which go all the way back to late 1E (Dungeoneer's Survival Guide); it was simply changed to roll high instead of roll low and became required instead of optional]

 

[billd91]

Here are some of the biggest differences that I was hung up on when first learning 3rd edition:
1) tactical movement on a grid
2) attacks of opportunity (for nearly everything)
3) feats
4) class "balance"
5) Challenge Rating
6) 0-level spells, cantrips, and ever-present spells
7) prestige classes
8) the d20 DC system for skills (that took away all DM rulings, as everything was codified)
9) character wealth by level baked into the system

<snip>

Anyone else realizing this?

It's definitely a generational shift, but it's not like all of those 9 things were brand spanking new with 3e.
1) Tactical movement on a grid was already part of the game considering it came from miniatures, had scales associated with miniatures, facing rules based on both square and hex grids, and grid combat in Player's Option: Combat and Tactics.
2) AoOs existed for the special case of fleeing a melee since at least 1e, PO: C&T expanded on them with threatened spaces and other triggers for AoO
3) feats = weapon proficiencies for the most part, and both OA and the Celts book introduced some things like martial arts maneuvers and Salmon Leaps that could be bought as special moves
4) class balance was just balance around a different metric as evidenced by different XPs for each class to advance (though it didn't work very well)
5) CR was a refinement of monster levels
6) cantrips were introduced in UA, though the implementation was a bit different
7) the 1e bard was essentially a prestige class
8) Yeah - this was a pretty significant change. Made them use, essentially, the same mechanic as hitting something in combat. It does make the game easier to learn, but WAY too much is made about it not allowing DM rulings. Player who were savvy with the rules were already lawyering the heck out of things if a DM let them. 3e just put more info out there in the players' hands by default.
9) Some elements of character wealth was already assumed by the system - wealth by level just made it visible and gave DMs a way to pace it (or deviate from the expected pacing if they so chose).

Basically, most of that stuff was a further development of ideas already percolating around TSR before they stopped being able to pay the printer. I'd even argue that none of those elements were the most far-reaching changes in how the game ends up being played - though 9 touches on it. Changes in magic items and their ease of creation/purchase blow all of those changes out of the water when it comes to the game being significantly different.

 

[monsmord]

I've been with it almost since the beginning, less 4e (and probably only because our group had invested too much and too recently into the earlier editions). If our play style changed, it was due to growing up (well, that's up for debate), and exposure to other games (Amber, classic Marvel, ICE, WoD 1e, etc.) As new D&D editions came out, the min-maxers kept min-maxing, strategists kept strategizing, those looking for exotica found it, etc. The rules have been almost irrelevant, except as a basis to argue over interpretation. D&D mechanics weren't an issue - rolling high, rolling low, hexes, squares, whatever, was all the same to us. Nor was the art more than mildly inspirational. And, like most tables, we had house rules and settings going. No, we just got older, family-ified, some of us wiser, we interacted with new gamers with their own styles, all that. At the core, it's always been D&D for us - the flavor remained, just the crunch differed.

 

[cbwjm]

We still played 3e like it was 2e, it had some great improvements to the old game streamlining everything into the d20+modifier vs AC/DC. I thought feats were great because they split previous proficiencies into a new option rather than relying on your proficiency slots to pick up as in 2e. I think all 3e really did was streamline everything, there were still things I preferred from 2e, but overall, 3e just seemed like a continuation of the evolution of DnD.

 

[Kurotowa]

D&D changed. That's what happens when time passes. It changed under TSR, too. And you'll notice plenty of people claiming that "real D&D" is AD&D 1e, or BECMI, or whatever. It's exactly the same as how the version of [Your Favorite Superhero] from when you were 13 will forever been the "real" version to you.

 

[Oofta]

With apologies to Billy Joel...

What's the matter with the dice I'm rolling?​

Can't you tell that you always want to roll high?​

Maybe I should fight some old school monsters?​

We all attack in order to stay alive​

Where have you been gamin' dude lately, sonny?​

You can't be this nerdy till you spend a lot of money​

Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new game​

Funny, but it's still D&D to me​

 

[Voadam]

Here are some of the biggest differences that I was hung up on when first learning 3rd edition:

Most of these were here in one form or another before.

1) tactical movement on a grid

You always had distance moved in a round and 1e had tactical things like which side your shield was on versus your attacker's attack and attacking from behind as considerations.

2) attacks of opportunity (for nearly everything)

Retreating without a strategic withdrawal and 1e casting in melee come to mind.

3) feats

Oriental Adventures with Martial Arts and Proficiencies and then nonweapon proficiencies in Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and then 2e.

4) class "balance"

The xp charts, stat requirements, and comparative strength at low level versus high levels were (poor IMO) attempts at this in old D&D.

5) Challenge Rating

Monster Level charts in 1e.

6) 0-level spells, cantrips, and ever-present spells

Unearthed Arcana 0 level cantrips.

7) prestige classes

Bards and Knights of Krynn.

8) the d20 DC system for skills (that took away all DM rulings, as everything was codified).

Nonweapon proficiencies that were a d20 roll under instead of up system. Thief Skills. Detecting secret doors. Bending Bars and lifting gates.

9) character wealth by level baked into the system

Guidelines for how much magic NPCs at various levels should get were in the DMG.

 

[Parmandur]

I started with 3.x in college, with friends who had played 2E since Middle School. Going back to 2E to try it out latter was not problematic, it made a lot of sense actually.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

With apologies to Billy Joel...

What's the matter with the dice I'm rolling?​

Can't you tell that you always want to roll high?​

Maybe I should fight some old school monsters?​

We all attack in order to stay alive​

Where have you been gamin' dude lately, sonny?​

You can't be this nerdy till you spend a lot of money​

Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new game​

Funny, but it's still D&D to me​

Of all the absurd things I was JUST thinking of this song in reference to D&D!