Did I overreact or is my DM a moron? RANT

[jdrakeh]

Concerning the teacher playing D&D with his students outside of school... I wonder if anybody here has ever heard of a game club before. For years they were all the rage on college campuses, and in more than a few high schools as well. What is a game club? Generally, it's a student organized club for... well... gaming.

It has always been common to find teachers amongst the ranks of game clubs (both in college and in high school). Unlike many more mainstream (and less misunderstood) clubs, it's also fairly common to find game clubs based off campus - in the homes of group members. And if teachers are group members... you get the idea.

I've seen at least five game clubs like this, myself (3 College, 2 High School).

Anyhow, I think it's an incredibly sad state of affairs when somebody says 'I play D&D with my teacher' and the majority of thread respondants make a gargantuan leap in logic from that fairly innoculous statement to the assumption that said teacher is obviously some kind of eeeeeeeeevil child molester (there, I actually said what everybody else has been hinting around at).

Is it any wonder that mainstream society brands gamers as losers or weirdos? I mean, looking at this thread, it seems that a lot of gamers jump to that conclusion, as well

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

It's one of the sad facets of modern America, I think, that we either SEE child molesters under every rock and in every ice-cream man ... or that we HAVE to see them.

But I have to say that in my last college game group we had several folks who were 40s-50s age, employees and the like at the college, who gamed with the college kids. Never found it weird. Some of them were really great players.

Personal preference, I'm not a huge fan of playing with teenagers ... and I'm only 25. It's just I'm not in a mood, currently, for alot of hand-holding and the exuberant ... oddities ... that come from the teenage mind. We had a couple teenage players in my last game (the GM's kid and a friend of his) ... which wasn't really all that bad ... we had another player that was such a nightmare about table-manners that the kid was actually a friggin' dream to play with, and that guy had 10 years on the kids.

--fje

 

[Imperialus]

Thank you Jdrakeh, now my post doesn't have to be so long.

Back when I was 12-13 years old and in Junior High myself and 5 other students played a Forgotten Realms campaign with our English teacher who was in his early 30's serving as DM and his wife (who was also a teacher) playing a character. I can state with absolute certainty that there was never any kind of bad touchie going on in the game I played. Of course we met after school in a common room on campus but there is nothing that I see as "wrong" about him or any other teacher getting a group of his students involved in a D&D game. Even if it involved going over to a students house that's still cool. I mean I assume parents are present in the picture too and given that many schools now are simply not able to stay open for students very long after class lets out there may not be another option. I and I think it's unfair to judge this teacher based on ridiculous stereotypes. It's accusations like this that have led many teachers to refusing to tutor students after class, or help with extracurricular activities, or even help students who come to them with a personal problem for fear of being accused of being improper.

 

[fusangite]

Concerning the teacher playing D&D with his students outside of school... I wonder if anybody here has ever heard of a game club before. For years they were all the rage on college campuses, and in more than a few high schools as well. What is a game club? Generally, it's a student organized club for... well... gaming.

But what is going on here is clearly distinct on a number of bases:

In a gaming club, the teacher takes on a leadership role, not merely in forming the group but also in making sure that the games run smoothly. This is clearly not what is happening here. While people might want to make the case that this fellow is somehow unobtrusively leading by example, I have difficulty believing that he would not see it as somehow his responsibility to prevent the other players from treating the DM the way they are. Similarly, why hasn't this fellow given the players at least a few examples, in the form of sessions he runs, of what functional game mastering looks like?

From what little data we have, it seems to me that this gentleman is more interested in appearing to be a peer of the players than he is in providing the kind of leadership and guidance the teacher-organizer of an RPG club is expected to. I have a friend who has professionally run RPG clubs for 10-14 year old kids in community and youth centres for the better part of a decade so I have a pretty clear idea what the job adult leadership in youth games entails. (Of course, part of the problem in this thread is that these particular 16-19 year olds are acting like 10-14 year olds.)

Anyhow, I think it's an incredibly sad state of affairs when somebody says 'I play D&D with my teacher' and the majority of thread respondants make a gargantuan leap in logic from that fairly innoculous statement to the assumption that said teacher is obviously some kind of eeeeeeeeevil child molester (there, I actually said what everybody else has been hinting around at).

I said that I hoped he found the kids attractive because, frankly, there are precious few reasons to just accept people at that age behaving in the way that this group of players is. However, I apologize for contributing to this, I agree, disturbing social trend that looks down on mixed-age groupings and is constantly redefining pedophilia in increasingly absurd terms (like 19 year olds sleeping with 17 year olds).

Is it any wonder that mainstream society brands gamers as losers or weirdos? I mean, looking at this thread, it seems that a lot of gamers jump to that conclusion, as well

Well, our hobby does certainly over-represent these constituencies. And I can say this because I'm a loser/weirdo myself!

 

[JoeGKushner]

First, the group: The DM(let's call him Dim, causse he's not that bright), it's his first experience DMing so we all give him a hard time asking questions about everything. Not because we hate him, but so he gets used to it and he can always have an answer ready. The pally and druid question EVERYTHING he syas though, and I usually have to take up for him.

This is jerk behavior. Giving someone a hard time when they're new to the seat of the GM is not the route to go. DMs should be mentored by someone who everyone considers good. Mechanics are important. Fun is more important.

Bob The Paladin: Bob IS the main character. Dim has said so on several occasions. "Bob, you're the main character Im not going to kill you." Bob wants to play an evil paladin (of slaughter) but Dim won't let him, causing much tension.

I'm afraid that this is a good case for why the GM needs to be mentored. Right away, I wouldn't play this game. If the DM has stated out that the paladin is the "main" character and is immune to death, then everyone else suffers. No game for me.

Shroom the druid: An aasimar with the celestial bloodline. Atleast I think he's an aasimar there's apparently going to be some plot twist and I can infer that when it happens the druid is going to get major stat boosts and magic abilities. ok....

Now it's starting to sound like the paladin isn't the main character but from what you're saying, it somes like some jealously is coming acorss.

Mohodabiksfhdaoihfi(or something like that) the wizard: This guy's the vet. The rest of us are 16-19 and this guy is about 40. He's been playing since the 80's. Most importantly, he ALL about the roleplaying, going to the point he won't use a mini unless it matches his character. Refuses to tell his alignment but if you want to have a philisophical discussion he's all for it (very cool way of playing). I find it incredibly unfair the guy who wants to roleplay the most is forced to sit in the back and cast magic missle while the druid is a min-maxer.

Seems to have good qualities and bad ones. Not letting people know his alignment sounds fine in most games where people have decided to play as a group. Not using a mini unless it matches his character sounds like a good chance for the GM to mess with him like Ken in Dork Tower.

Me, (the former) fighter: I could care less about being the main character. In D&D, I'm all about the builds. Some might call me a rules lawyer, but I don't think that really fits. I know all the rules but don't bend them and exploit loopholes. I just love trying different builds, be they benefitial or just cool. I'm definetly not above killing my character to play a new one.

With D&D 3.5, there are a lot of options. Most people I know don't necessarily "kill' their characters but rather work with the GM to introduce a new character so that they can try something out. When the complete books were first coming out, I saw a swashbuckler, warlock, and some other new core classes hit the game but quickly fade out as more traditional roles asserted their 'domian' dominance so to speak.

Anyway, the situation in question is this: Bob was kidnapped, before we can save him, someone else does. This someone s Marth(cool, marth is a guy important to another campaign we all play in, but now he's the dreaded DMPC, only one thing angers me more than DMPCs. well get to that). We meet up, somehow, wuth Marth and Bob in the woods, not to mention Marth's 7 buddies, yeah 7. These guys are headed in the same direction as us, so we decide to get a lift. Lo and behold we're attacked by demons. 12 demons, go figure, anyway 1 is a balor and one is also a CR 20 (we're all lvl 5 except Marth and crew) plus baubaus and some other kinda demon. We're surrounded, but we can't see wehre they are. Being the crazy guy I am I run into the woods to find them. I can't see any of them (despite some of them being flaming demon thingies). Then Marth shoots one all of 15 feet from me, how I didn't see it is beyond me. So 2 NPCs engage the balor and other CR 20 guys and take them down in two rounds(This pissed me off so bad I had to step back from the table while we played or I was gonna punch Dim). I'm fighting my demon when all the sudden the psion kills him. THIS is what pisses me off mroe than anything. DO NOT STEAL MY KILL! DIm knew this but I dismissed it as wheels(the psion is in a wheel chair(real original) so I call h im wheels. This made wheels very mad because he was parylyzed when his house collapsed on him and killed his family when he first "discovered" his psionic powers. The wizard even brought up that he could use a regeneration spell. He said it was his penantce for killing his family. As a neutral character I totally agreed with that. That jsut pissed him off that I didn't fell sorry for him. So he isn't going to feel sorry for himself but if someone else doesn't he gets pissed. What the heck?) didn't know any better. So I pick another demon and get busy. The psion steals my target AGAIN. Despite there being a demont hat noone touched and the pally's sword jsut disentigrated, he takes MY target. I told Dim I was going to stab wheels in the face. He said if I itried wheels would kill me. I didn't care, but decided better of it after I figured I couldn't move that far. So I instead coup de graced myself, failed my fort, and died. SO then i got up and left. Now Dim thinks I did oit jsut to play a new character, next session I'll end that rumor.
So, to anyone who managed to read all that, is what I did justifiable or was I rash? Whatever the answer, I'm willing to dismiss this as bad dming and go with it. I get the idea he won't be that willing. Thank you good night.

Sounds like you and the GM have different expectations. In fiction, it's not uncommon for lesser heroes or those who are bound for great things, to be escorted by powerful characters. Rand at the begining of Wheel of Time for example, or Pug from Raymond Feist's Magician. Other examples are found throughout most modern fantasy fiction which moved away from starting characters being super competent with a few exceptions like Drizzt.

It'd be interesting to hear what the rest of the group has to say.

 

[billd91]

But what is going on here is clearly distinct on a number of bases:

In a gaming club, the teacher takes on a leadership role, not merely in forming the group but also in making sure that the games run smoothly. This is clearly not what is happening here. While people might want to make the case that this fellow is somehow unobtrusively leading by example, I have difficulty believing that he would not see it as somehow his responsibility to prevent the other players from treating the DM the way they are. Similarly, why hasn't this fellow given the players at least a few examples, in the form of sessions he runs, of what functional game mastering looks like?

The original poster did say, eventually, that the teacher is their regular DM and is basically taking a break from it. I think that counts as sufficient leadership.

But in this particular situation, I think there's still an argument to be made for letting the kids take the reins and letting it play out. How many of us played with just fellow teens and did the same dumb stuff this group did when we started? We learned to do better partly by doing the wrong things.

I think there are a lot of people out there who rely too much on some teacher/parent/whatever to provide constant leadership, direction, or supervision. These kids need to learn how to negotiate these sorts of things on their own too.

 

[Joël of the FoS]

I agree with many of the things said (it's just a game, calm down and discuss with your DM, it's a better way to make things better). Also, I'd suggest your DM to get a published adventure, as he seems not to know how to get things balanced.

Funny and sad thread.

Joël

 

[Sejs]

Heh. I *knew* you were a teenager, even before you said so later in the post. Only a teenager would call a Paladin a "pally".

You'll have to excuse me, I seem to have something stuck in my craw.

Sorry to correct you, but that whole "only a teenager would, etc" assertion? Doesn't stand. 'Pally' is just another abbreviation, the same as 'necro' is to necromancer, 'barb' is to barbarian, or 'sam' is to street samurai.

I liked the whole looking-down-your-nose thing, though. That was nice.



Ahem, anyway, spleen venting aside, the matter of the original post. Yes, you overreacted; no, the DM isn't a moron, he's new to the position. Good DMing isn't something that springs up unbidden in most people, it takes time and practice to learn how to run a good game. It also takes a lot of failing along the way. As a player, you throwing a tantrum, or trying to give the DM a hard time by grilling him on the rules constantly arn't going to help make the guy any better, they're just going to make him not want to run anymore. If something pops up in the game that irks you, like the thing with the psion, just roll with it in the short term then talk to the DM after the session. Tell him (such as in this case) that you guys really felt marginalized by the NPCs. That they were doing all the heroic cool stuff and you were all just window dressing. That it wasn't fun at all having a bunch of random guys swoop in and steal the spotlight. Don't just tell the DM that you're annoyed at something, tell him why you're annoyed. That's how he'll learn.

Edit/Additional: Joel has another good point. Suggest your DM check out some published adventures, even the free ones on the WotC website, so he can get a good feel for appropriate balance.

 

[Kapalen]

This whole post seems so incredibly ludicrous I scarcely know how to respond. Quite frankly Erics grandmother would have my hide if I voiced exactly what I thought of you and your party members as players so I'll avoid that.

You said right off the bat that this was a new DM who hadn't DMed before. Anytime I'm a player in a game that involves a new DM I do everything in my power to help them. I give them a copy of my character sheet with notes explaining how and why my character will react to a half dozen broad based scenarios. I make sure any relevant abilities I have that he/she might not understand are either copied out onto note cards or tabbed in my book for easy reference.

Not only that but if I am reading your post right you have a paladin who wants to be CE and somehow expects this character to mesh well with an assimar? Amoral campaigns (even if they arn't offically amoral) are even more difficult than standard ones which is only would serve to increase the DM's grief. You claim that your character is "the crazy guy". Fantastic... Just what every new DM needs... an unpredictable character.

If I see something that they may have overlooked I will point it out if I feel confidant that I can find the rule within 20 or 30 seconds. Otherwise I will look it up when I have a chance, stick a bookmark in the relevant page and mention it to the DM at the end of the night as we are tidying up. I do not disrupt the game and undermine his confidence by calling him out in the middle of something while he's already distracted trying to figure out the fort save modifiers for the spell that was just cast on his NPC because I can.

If I was DMing now and I had any of you jackasses in my group questioning every other ruling I made you'd be looking for a new DM in pretty short order.

As far as I see it you got pissy because a DMPC was "stealing your kills"... Ok first you have to understand like other people have mentioned several times DMPC's are a common thing to see emerge from behind the screen early in a DM's career. Sometimes they don't have confidence in their own abilities to gauge encounter difficulties and they want someone to pull your butts out of the fire if they made an encounter too difficult.

If a DM doesn't feel confidant in the idea that the PC's are going to allow themselves to be led at least to a certain degree, and I can only assume that since you challenge his rulings left right and center you probably also challenge his NPC's and refuse to pick up on his attempts to drop plot hooks. He may be resorting to a DMPC just to try and keep you guys within sight of the track. It's my experience that much of the time railroading results just as much from player problems as DM ones.

As for "stealing your kills" you'll have to excuse me but to quote the D&D adverts "someone needs to get out of his basement". Seriously stop playing Everquest, grow up a little and realize that D&D is a TEAM game not a single character out to get "PHAT L3WT AND EP'S!!11!!one!!11I11" You get just as much XP no matter who kills the bad monsters and while some frustration might be acceptable since your character might feel useless by comparison what twisted system of morality could possibly justify your character killing AN ALLY because he killed something that he percived was a very real threat to you. Even more ridiculous (if that is even possible) is the fact that when the DM told you that such an endeavor would be as stupid as it sounds you felt the need to throw yourself on your sword... please explain to me what you could have possibly thought this would accomplish other than to underline how juvenile you obviously are.

You obviously have no respect for how much time and effort someone was willing to put in for your enjoyment and have chosen instead to make said persons life as difficult as possible. I think it’s disgusting and juvenile and I don’t think you deserve a decent DM.

You have every right o your opinion this isn't me backlashing and having a fit, but I do plan to defend myself. THe paladin wants to be a nonaasimar CE, but Dim won't let him. Not to mention it's stated that aasimars can make the most vile of villians. As for calling us(not just me, the others who you don't know at all) jaskasses, I appreciate your closemindedness and unwillingness to understand that you are not Dim, Dim is Dim not you. I know Dim, I don't know you. If I did know you, I'm sure I'd treat you and your dming appropriatly. To address the whole stelaing of kills matter. Yes it pisses me off, but not because of xp and not when it's stupid to claim a kill, such as 4 v 1 or if I'm getting the hoopla beat out of me. I'm crazy but not stupid.(Note: I have played played and hate Everquest, nor do I live in a sasement). Dim didn't throw in the NPCs to guard us he threw in the battle for the NPCs to show off. We have no problem with plothooks (of course if we miss them I guess I wouldn't know.) My suicide accomplished something other than proving how juvenile I am (very for the record) it killed me. It did exactly what it needed to do. I appreciate your feedback and I hope the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits.

NOTE: Just read chainsaw mage's trpile posts. SO you know I got the term pally from these very boards. ALso, thanks for reminding me that most old people unlike snor are indeed old farts who need to be put in a rocket and shot into the sun. Thanks again for insulting senor my friend of many years. If I ever meet you in person-and you can print this out as proof- I'm going to smash your face in with a shovel. Nice job of stereotyping all "kids" as juvenile and disgusting" You know what, I've never met you but you're over 20 so you must be smelly and balding and forget your children's names all the time. Oh no you've attacked my typing skills. I can't hit the right key 14% of the time, but imagine that people got my message just the same, nice try though. ALso, we do not play as someone's house. We have a "neutral" meeting place and Senor has at no point even conceived thinking about trying to maybe "bad touchie" as someone put it.

NO, this thread DOES NTO have a point. that's why i made sure to put rant in the title, thank you.

 

[Conaill]

Well, there goes the thread...

Kapalen - FYI, the correct response when people start flinging personal insults is to report the post to the moderators. See that little "Report Post" button at the bottom left of each post? Responding in kind will only get the thread closed and/or get you banned from the site.