Did the Alignment Champions Win?

[neoweasel]

Depends on the campaign tone. I'd like the game to support "Knee deep in dead orcs? Is that all? Send more orcs!" and "Oh, woe betide the sorry fate that causes us to kill, lest we be killed! Curse you, cruel gods of dire necessity!"

Hell, I like it when both characters are in the same party.

Here's a tip learned from almost three decades of DMing. (I'll hit that '30 years of running people through dungeons' mark in October or so):Ethical dilemmas get your players arguing with each other, in character, chewing up game time in a way which requires very little prep on your part. THEY remember this great, involving, game; YOU remember having an extra half hour to nap instead of statting out opponents. Someday, I'll write 'The Total Lazy Bastard's Guide To Being A Great DM, or, How To Plot A Five Hour Session On A Twenty Minute Bus Ride')

The single best roleplaying session I've ever been in was based on an argument between my character and another's about what to do with a powerful artifact. Ethical dilemmas can be great characterization (so long as they grow naturally out of play and aren't forced).

 

[neoweasel]

Did you just say that alignment wars and party infighting are a good thing?

Well, IC party infighting and OOC party infighting are two different things. I don't know about Lizard, but I'd say that IC isn't always bad.

 

[hong]

Well, IC party infighting and OOC party infighting are two different things. I don't know about Lizard, but I'd say that IC isn't always bad.

Alignment wars, IME, almost always go from IC to OOC very quickly.

(Intraparty conflict in general often does the same thing, but less regularly and not as fast.)

 

[neoweasel]

Alignment wars, IME, almost always go from IC to OOC very quickly.

(Intraparty conflict in general often does the same thing, but less regularly and not as fast.)

The reason that I didn't speak about alignment wars is that I have somehow managed to play D&D for 22 years without getting in one. I have no experience in them.

IP conflict did when I was younger and neither my friends nor I were particularly skilled in conflict resolution. It hasn't been an issue in a decade or so.

 

[Lizard]

Did you just say that alignment wars and party infighting are a good thing?

Actually, it's usually people of the same or close alignments -- just different *personalities*.

And, yeah, players who play their characters as real people, not chess pieces, and think about morality, values, ethics, and so on in the context of 'what would my character do? How would he feel about this?' are not just good things. They're GREAT things.

 

[hong]

Actually, it's usually people of the same or close alignments -- just different *personalities*.

For which you need alignments as a mechanic not at all, yes?

And, yeah, players who play their characters as real people, not chess pieces, and think about morality, values, ethics, and so on in the context of 'what would my character do? How would he feel about this?' are not just good things. They're GREAT things.

It's like a generic food metaphor. Comparing things to ice cream are great, as is comparing things to peanut butter. But what's best of all is to compare things to ice cream and peanut butter at the same time.

 

[Lizard]

Alignment wars, IME, almost always go from IC to OOC very quickly.

(Intraparty conflict in general often does the same thing, but less regularly and not as fast.)

The problem with Hong's Second Law is that it attracts people who think of the game as just a game like Monopoly, and they aren't generally capable of splitting their character from themselves.

People who take fantasy "too seriously" recognize that just because Drunkbeard the Dwarf hates Nancypants the Elf, it doesn't mean they have to hate each other in real life, too. Character and player are separate.

If you run beer&pretzels, let's just kill kill kill games, IC conflict is Bad. It gets in the way. If you run games that play out like good novels, then there's lots of breaks in the action for the talky bits that spell the difference between a fun game and a great game.

This almost certainly won't change w/4e, as I've played many games w/out alignments and never had issues with PCs who lacked personal value systems. Indeed, demechanizing alignments has a lot of plusses to it.

 

[hong]

The problem with Hong's Second Law is that it attracts people who think of the game as just a game like Monopoly, and they aren't generally capable of splitting their character from themselves.

The great thing about Hong's Second Law is that it attracts people who realise that the game is there to be enjoyed for what it is.

People who take fantasy "too seriously" recognize that just because Drunkbeard the Dwarf hates Nancypants the Elf, it doesn't mean they have to hate each other in real life, too. Character and player are separate.

People who take fantasy too seriously forget that out-of-character issues are just as important as in-character ones when it comes to enjoyment around the table. Indeed, the presence of such people often leads to more party conflict, because out-of-character issues become translated into in-character ones.

If you run beer&pretzels, let's just kill kill kill games, IC conflict is Bad. It gets in the way. If you run games that play out like good novels, then there's lots of breaks in the action for the talky bits that spell the difference between a fun game and a great game.

If you run immersion games, OOC conflict is rationalised away as Good, because now your reasons to squabble have been transferred to proxies.

This almost certainly won't change w/4e, as I've played many games w/out alignments and never had issues with PCs who lacked personal value systems. Indeed, demechanizing alignments has a lot of plusses to it.

Indeed.

 

[Lizard]

If you run immersion games, OOC conflict is rationalised away as Good, because now your reasons to squabble have been transferred to proxies.

30 years of gaming (almost).

Never ONCE saw an IC/OOC conflict, or had the gaming group explode because of IC debates, or had any of the "drama" a lot of people claim to have seen.

Maybe I've just been lucky.

 

[Steely Dan]

Great, this thread I started has degenerated into "The Couple" arguing again…

I know you guys have a hard-on for each other, but please, really, get a room.