Did the Witch King use a morning star or flail

[Christian]

3rd Edition isn't as kind to those interested in military history as 1st Edition was. The much-esteemed Mr. Gygax included some alternate names for the weapons in the PH tables; next to morningstar was listed 'includes Godentag and holy water sprinkler'. Unlike the name morningstar, which is used somewhat inconsistently in different medieval texts, these two names refer to specific weapons from specific times and places. The Godentag (German 'good day') was nothing more complicated than a large club with a number of spikes driven into it. The holy water sprinkler was named after its resemblance to the priestly tool rather than for any anti-undead function*, and consisted of a heavy spiked head attached to a long haft by one or two links of chain, or even just a hinge.

This makes it pretty clear to me that the original intent of the 'morningstar' weapon was to include any club-, mace-, or flail-like weapon with sharp spikes included. Whether that carried through to later editions is obviously disputable; but considering that maces are listed as doing bludgeoning damage only, I'd have to assume that a spiked mace would fall under the morningstar rubric.

*In Richard Armour's memorable turn of phrase, these were much more likely to be seen sprinkling blood and brains than holy water ... Which of these weapons is more ironically named, do you think?

 

[swordsmasher]

I'm also pretty sure the weapon has a name (described in the book, anyway).
so in d&d terms it also might be considered epic. though in tolkein every magic weapon seemed to have a name (except for the weapons the hobbits found under the barrow-downs when they fought the wraiths, tom bombadil saved em from that escapade anyway. wish old tom woulda had a few scenes in the movie.)

 

[Klaus]

It's not named in the book (just went to check).

I'd agree that it was a Large Heavy Flail, and either the Witch King was using Wield Oversized Weapon or he was being all manly and stuff and sucking up all penalties for using it (which might account for him missing Eowyn a couple of times before Sundering her shield... and arm!).

Back in 2e, they described the light (or horseman's) flail as a short baton with a 1-2 ft. length of chain and a spiked ball, and the heavy (or footman's) flail as a 4-5 ft. staff with a hinge and a heavy head. That's what I illustrated here:

 

[cyferwolf]

I tend to use the rule that chain or no, if the head is spiked its a morning star. if the head isnt spiked and it has no chain its a mace, and if the head isn't siked and there is a chain, its a flail. prolly not historically accurate, but it serves.

 

[ruleslawyer]

The big problem is that spikes vs. no spikes don't really change the functional element of the weapon much, and the rules are all about function. As it stands, a flail gives advantages to trip and disarm attacks. Why? Because of the chain, really. Does it make a difference whether the flail's head is spiked or not? Not really.

 

[Ranger REG]

3rd Edition isn't as kind to those interested in military history as 1st Edition was. The much-esteemed Mr. Gygax included some alternate names for the weapons in the PH tables; next to morningstar was listed 'includes Godentag and holy water sprinkler'.

Personally, I'd rather they put those alternate names in the individual weapon description entries. But then this is a fantasy RPG, so they try to avoid many real-world elements. After all, the druid is not a real-world druid, just D&D version.

You wanna learn more about weapons of the world, check your local library or your favorite bookstore.

OBTW, the Witch-King's weapon in ROTK is an articulated club, according to Weapons by The Diagram Group. To be specific, it's a morningstar (or spiked) flail, and I concur.

 

[dormotavian]

from the horses mouth

well this conversation surprised me so I called a friend of mine at WETA (the people who did the actual costuming) and their term for it was a flail but not in theclassical sense. the chain on the weapon is actually only 11 inches in length where as the mace weight attachment is over 3 1/2 feet in length. the actual handle is one foot exactly and when filmed they used angles to make it all appear much larger. the whole thing was constructed of foam rubber which is the only reason the actor could wield it because had the thing been made of iron as they where attempting to depict it would have weighed in excess of 80 lbs just in mace weight which would have proved impossible for any "mortal" man to wield in the manner the witch king swung it about.

I hope this helps

sidenote: they did construct an actual iron mace for one shot if you watch the film when the mace is swung and practically burries itself in the ground it was thrown by three men at loose sod.


EDIT: I did happen to find a picture of JUST the weight from the weapon.
http://www.decipher.com/images/contentimages/article_lotr_wetawkweapons3.jpg

 

[Christian]

Zombie thread! I hope the cleric can turn it, or he'll have to bludgeon it to pieces with his morning star.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Interesting.

For a little more on the history of maces, flails, and morningstars (as well as stats for several of the other weapons mentioned in this thread) check out my book: EN Publishing's EN Arsenal #6: Flails, Maces, and Morningstars.
I deal with different head-types and why each weapon is each weapon from a gamer's standpoint. You will find the classic DnD weapons as well as variants, adding multiple heads, some revelant feats, prestige classes, a short list of magical ones and even a demon/diety of flails.


Ciao
Dave

 

[taliesin15]

That weapon IMHO looks like what I would consider a Dire Flail, though the illustration in 3.0 PHB pictures it as a double weapon. IOW, this would be a Flail that a Giant would wield (or at least an Ogre).

Do note that the illustration of a Morningstar is a spiked metal ball on the end of a stick, sans chain. When one considers a Morningstar as the preferred weapons of Goblins, this is what I think of, hearkening back to MM 1.0.