Did WotC underestimate the Paizo effect on 4E?

[Reynard]

Save or Dies make things a lottery. Don't want them back.

As for elements that can't be replaced by simple "save or suck" or "you get better" mechanics, 4e has the poison/disease track - which is an elegant and flexible replacement for the clunky mechanics of level drain (for one thing it means that your condition in some cases can get worse.) It's not often used in my experience (for that matter nor was level drain), but works well for things like Lycanthropy, infection by certain parasites, and poisons.

FWIW, I really like the 4E disease system, too., and have incorporated it into my PF game -- including using it for magical curses and insanity. But it doesn't *replace* save or die or energy drain.

Here's an important thing, IMO: it is damn near impossible to produce actual fear in a player at the game table, and equally difficult to get a player to make his character act as if terrified of some monster. However, give that monster a save or die or level draining touch/gaze/breath/whatever, and suddenly in game you have terrified PCs run by terrified players. Even Conan got "scared" when faced with the truly weird monstrosities of the ages buried beneath the earth. Whether it was the original design intent of save or die and level drain, the effect was just this.

That's why it is worthwhile and why I think you'd find that in general DMs are more positive about it and players are more negative (those there's exceptions both directions, of course). More to the point, they shouldn't be removed. Alternatives should be offered and advice should be given, but not taking them out of the game.

 

[carmachu]

I'm not really wanting to argue about it, to tell the truth. I acknowledge there are those who don't play 4e who might be interested in the Essentials box (and more interested in Gamma World than that), but I just quibble with the word "lots." The one poll asking about essentials placed it at about a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio. But its not worth arguing over. It will be what it will be.

edit: also there are plenty of people that really like Star WArs Saga, yes. But it seems curious you would put it in a list of things that might draw Pathfinder players back to WotC considering its a different genre and Wizards dropped the line. If anything, dropping SWS seemed to make a lot of people more irritated than not at the company.

In our group its unaimous that we dont like 4e. However, there were several folks(2-3 in a group of 8) that love SWS. If 4e were more like SWS as they were hoping 4e would, there might have been converts.

Essentials wont change their minds.

 

[Kralin Thornberry]

FWIW, I really like the 4E disease system, too., and have incorporated it into my PF game -- including using it for magical curses and insanity. But it doesn't *replace* save or die or energy drain.

Here's an important thing, IMO: it is damn near impossible to produce actual fear in a player at the game table, and equally difficult to get a player to make his character act as if terrified of some monster. However, give that monster a save or die or level draining touch/gaze/breath/whatever, and suddenly in game you have terrified PCs run by terrified players. Even Conan got "scared" when faced with the truly weird monstrosities of the ages buried beneath the earth. Whether it was the original design intent of save or die and level drain, the effect was just this.

That's why it is worthwhile and why I think you'd find that in general DMs are more positive about it and players are more negative (those there's exceptions both directions, of course). More to the point, they shouldn't be removed. Alternatives should be offered and advice should be given, but not taking them out of the game.

The problem is the players are "afraid" because a crappy roll on a "save or die" roll could kill of their character that they (potentially) put a lot of time/energy into, and 1 single roll could ruin all of that.

I have fallen victim to several "save or die" rolls, and it's not a lot of fun sitting around for the rest of the session doing nothing because of 1 bad roll.

 

[billd91]

I have fallen victim to several "save or die" rolls, and it's not a lot of fun sitting around for the rest of the session doing nothing because of 1 bad roll.

Is it better if you sit around for the rest of the session because it was a series of bad rolls?

 

[Garthanos]

Is it better if you sit around for the rest of the session because it was a series of bad rolls?

Generally a series implies choices and more circumstances to change your fate with them... at least in the latest version of the game this is true.l

 

[billd91]

Generally a series implies choices and more circumstances to change your fate with them... at least in the latest version of the game this is true.l

There's even a series of choices that occurs before a save or die single roll as well. I suppose with multiple rolls, depending on what's going on, there may be ways to arrest the slide. But how many rolls is that? How many does it take to ameliorate the frustration of a single save or die roll? Or is a player, doomed by a single die or multiple dice, really going to feel different having to sit and make up a new character or wait to be raise?

 

[Reynard]

The problem is the players are "afraid" because a crappy roll on a "save or die" roll could kill of their character that they (potentially) put a lot of time/energy into, and 1 single roll could ruin all of that.

I have fallen victim to several "save or die" rolls, and it's not a lot of fun sitting around for the rest of the session doing nothing because of 1 bad roll.

And so, when the save or die monster becomes apparent, you (and your character) will behave in such a way as to avoid having to make that saving throw in the first place -- which is exactly what i am talking about. it isn't quite "terror" but it looks enough like it to call it a duck.

 

[bouncyhead]

Congrats on being exceedingly rare

I think you overstate.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I think you overstate.

*Pokes Reynard*
No, he's exceedingly rare all right. Doesn't look like he's been cooked at all.

Since most SoD effects have been removed from Pathfinder it seems like rather a moot point anyway. A rallying cry, and a bit of a straw man.

Diseases and poisons... I like the way Pathfinder handles them, but don't know enough about how they are handled in 4e to really compare.

The Auld Grump, who needs to whittle a list of 26 potential players down to 12....

 

[AllisterH]

Probably very few tabletop rpg companies can get away with saturating the market like how WotC did it during the 3.5E D&D era (ie. tons of Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Races of *, Complete *, environments, different monster types, etc ... hardcover books).

We'll see how long Pathfinder can maintain the treadmill, until even the hardcore Pathinder completionists get exhausted too and start to jump off.

I started playing in the 1e era, but I started DMing/purchasing product during the 2e era.

Neither WOTC or PAIZO have come close IMO to saturating the market BY THEMSELVES. The OGL gives the impression of a busy release schedule IMO. Bullgrit has that excel chart which shows the product release schedule and frankly, even during the heights of 3.x, the only time WOTC released more product than TSR during the 2e era was the month when TSR had "problems at the printer".

(For example, currently, 4e releases one product a month roughly -two sometimes with one being an adventure...I grew up in the era when there was 2-3 new products from TSR EVERY WEEK).