Different Strokes

[shurai]

Nowadays it seems that DnD borrows much more heavily from the general fantasy culture (like anime). Especially stuff that's more visual. For example you'd never see terms like "dweomercraeft" or "libram" in the game if it were invented nowadays. About as "word-creative" as DnD gets today are the compound words "Undermountain", "Duskblade", and so on. If DnD continues to be thesaurus-dependant to any degree it is a hold-over from an earlier time.

Agreed. I miss the linguistic strangeness, and the more general strangeness, of the older D&D material. It's one of my favorite parts of Tolkien and other fantasies as well. It's the same problem Dykstrav was talking about -- the game has to be accessible. I wonder if that could have something to do with it.

 

[Drawmack]

And to top it off, you were reading Nightfall, a book about twilight, darkness, and cultural destruction fostered by ignorance and the sadly human fear of the unknown. The only way it would've been more poetic is if you'd been reading Farenheit 451.

Firelance, thanks for the info about The Long Tail! I'm reading now. This sort of thing has been in my mind for awhile, but I've never seen it quantified and formalized like this before.

At a job where I was middle management all of the other Jr. Managers and some of the Jr. VPs were complaining about my "influence" in the company. Apparently it seemed that I had more power then other people on and even above my level in the company. They were very concerned that I was using back room dealing and blackmail to get people to do my bidding. After months of listening to the complaints the COO brought it up at a meeting. I told them that I was not doing anything shady, however to explain how I was accomplishing this would take much much longer then was scheduled for the meeting but I would be more then happy to put a presentation together for the next monthly meeting and everyone agreed. I can to the next meeting and handed out coppies of The Prince by Machiavelli and Presentation of Self in Everyday Life by Irving Goffman. Then I did a 45 minutes presentation on the contents of the books and how they can help you be a better manager. My presentation was greeting by a resounding I don't have time to read and next he'll be telling us to read The Art of War.

After the meeting the COO handed me back the books and said he already owned very well read coppies of those books, assured me that I was on the right track, and asked if I would like to borrow his copy of The Art of War.

So yes the average american does not read. On the other hand the average american is not wealthy, does not reach executive chair in a company, and is generally displeased with life. Do you really want to be the average american?

 

[Dykstrav]

At a job where I was middle management all of the other Jr. Managers and some of the Jr. VPs were complaining about my "influence" in the company. Apparently it seemed that I had more power then other people on and even above my level in the company...

So yes the average american does not read. On the other hand the average american is not wealthy, does not reach executive chair in a company, and is generally displeased with life. Do you really want to be the average american?

This is so true that it hurts.

When I was back in film school I landed a directing job during my senior year. Getting to actually direct is the holy grail of at least half the people in the film industry, alot of people were asking me how I got the job. So... The next Production Techniques class I brought in a few books. The Art of war and the Prince, which I cited as required reading for anyone in a leadership position. A Book of Five Rings, which I cited as required reading for anyone in a creative position. The Odyssey, the Iliad, the King James Bible, and the collected works of William Shakespeare; these I cited as being required to learn dramatic structure, characterization, and dialogue.

The general reaction was truly one of the most frustrating things that I've ever seen in my life.

"Uh, those aren't movies. How would reading books help you know how to direct a movie?"

Apparently, only two other people in the entire senior class read for fun. No one else had actually read an entire book since high school, and apparently, rarely even cracked the textbooks that their parents had spent several hundred dollars on every semster. That particularly made me want to crack someone right in the jaw since I couldn't afford the textbooks and had to bum around the student center an extra hour every day borrowing books to do the required reading.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, no one there had seen a film older than Jaws or Scarface either. People in film school had never seen Citizen Kane or Battleship Potempkin, for example.

 

[gizmo33]

It's the same problem Dykstrav was talking about -- the game has to be accessible. I wonder if that could have something to do with it.

I only have wacky theories as to why things are like that.

Firstly, I think there was less of a fantasy niche in the old days, so in order to get your "fantasy fix" you pretty much had to go outside of the specific genre. Old-school fantasy people probably read as many Westerns, Sci-Fi, and classic folk tales as fantasy. Nowadays, a person can spend their whole life just reading Forgotten Realms novels. There's probably been a whole generation of people who grew up in that environment.

Secondly, I think the "old school" designers didn't know much or didn't care much about market research. They had a vision for a game that never existed before, and so they were in the process of saying "here's something called an RPG - here's how you should play it". If they listened to "market research" they probably never would have created RPGs to begin with. I think you have to have a personality type that really doesn't care what other people think to make something like that work.

Things are somewhat reversed now - the hobby seems much more interested in what people want. Successful personality types in this new environment are probably those that are good at figuring out what other people want.

It's the same thing with music: you have an innovator (or several) that come out and define a genre, that genre morphs into a "formula" that works, then sooner or later people get tired of the formula and a new innovator comes along. I don't think individuals sit down and intend for it to be this way - I just think it's a natural result of market forces, creative forces, and human nature. (PS. I think people make a huge mistake when they call this "nostalgia".)

 

[Drawmack]

This is so true that it hurts.

If you've never read goffman I highly sugest it. It will be one of the most painful experiences of your life, but when you're done - and your eyes have stopped bleeding - the rewards will be worth the pain.

Basically Goffman is a jackass, but he's a jackass who says a lot of things that are right.

 

[I'm A Banana]

This thread has reached grumpy old critical mass, nearly. It's like a singularity of "kids these days" and "society is full of ignorant and selfish people."

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

But, yes, most of the design of the game has gone in a visual direction. This is because in fantasy, the visual element is very key. If I say "Jim was a man of average height, with unassuming eyes and plain, greying hair" you can all see Jim in your mind's eye. If I say "Boudine was of great stature for a velbrigg, with an angry face and hair the color of a snaflin's underbelly," the imagination either makes stuff up or goes "WTF?" and gives up.

Game-wise, videogames have largely taken the place of even board games. A family of four can play Wii sports with more energy and vigor than they can a game of CandyLand at this point.

Is this a bad thing? Probably not. But it's new and different, and that's gonna freak out those who were happy with the old and similar.

And, honestly, if you've got a problem with the way your public schools are abusing your children's minds, friggin' get on the school board and change things. I gotta say, it'd be a better way to spend your evening than statting up the goblin king.

 

[shurai]

This thread has reached grumpy old critical mass, nearly. It's like a singularity of "kids these days" and "society is full of ignorant and selfish people."

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

No doubt there is some gentle friendly ribbing going on here, but I still feel compelled to respond.

Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes, my friend. ; ]

And as long as I'm using the ability to quote as a serviceable substitute for wit, I'd say that knowing is half the battle, when it comes to solving problems. This thread has taught me several useful things:

• The Long Tails, and I know where to find out more about it.
• I've learned of several interesting books to read which have a good chance of improving my ability to work within groups of people, especially if I end up in charge.
• A Book of Five Rings has been useful to someone in a creative profession. That surprised me; I'm going to read it again to see what they mean.
• The bit about the linguistics hadn't consciously occurred to me before.

In all seriousness, I'm thankful. This has been a valuable discussion.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes, my friend. ; ]

Aaah, but isn't that an absolute? Hehehe..

 

[ShinHakkaider]

This is so true that it hurts.

When I was back in film school I landed a directing job during my senior year. Getting to actually direct is the holy grail of at least half the people in the film industry, alot of people were asking me how I got the job. So... The next Production Techniques class I brought in a few books. The Art of war and the Prince, which I cited as required reading for anyone in a leadership position. A Book of Five Rings, which I cited as required reading for anyone in a creative position. The Odyssey, the Iliad, the King James Bible, and the collected works of William Shakespeare; these I cited as being required to learn dramatic structure, characterization, and dialogue.

I'm not trying derial the thread, but I after reading alot of the posts in this thread I just have to say that you are the type of nerd / geek I wish most were like. Most of the time nerds / geeks like to use thier knowledge to beat people over the head with how smart they are (or think they are). In your case it looks like you were trying to impart and share knowledge with your peers.

The general reaction was truly one of the most frustrating things that I've ever seen in my life.

"Uh, those aren't movies. How would reading books help you know how to direct a movie?"

...which seems to have failed miserably.
But still your intent was good.

People in film school had never seen Citizen Kane or Battleship Potempkin, for example.

Uh...that's just...well...

I have no words.

 

[RFisher]

the game has to be accessible.

Does it? 1e AD&D was one of the least accessible games I've known, but it was wildly successful by anyone's standards. Even with an accessible alternative produced by the same company (Basic). In fact, many--possibly most--AD&D players started with the more accessible choice but quickly switched to the less accessible one.

Granted, the world is different today, but...

OK, I suppose I can't really believe that lack of accessibility can be a positive. Just that a great product can overcome it. But, perhaps great products are made accessible rather than being accessible. (If that makes any sense...)

Secondly, I think the "old school" designers didn't know much or didn't care much about market research. They had a vision [...]

This is true of so many products that I find compelling.

Do you design to market research, or do you use market research to learn how to better communicate your vision?

Game-wise, videogames have largely taken the place of even board games. A family of four can play Wii sports with more energy and vigor than they can a game of CandyLand at this point.

Right. Which is why Candyland is out-of-print...wait...

I noticed just the other day that the Candyland in the stores today has yet another cosmetic update from the copy we have--bought less than 6 years ago. Is money being spent to update this product because sales are falling? Or is it because, despite the Wii & everything else, Candyland is still a strong seller?

My kids are certainly just as enthusiastic about board games as they are video games.

& despite having a Playstation version of Monopoly that we enjoy a lot, we got our fourth physical incarnation of the game for Christmas. & it was my 13yo nephew & 10yo niece were the first to suggest playing it & enthusiastic participants.