OSR Differential Characteristics of OSR/TSR D&D versus WotC/Paizo D&D

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
There's a few differences you missed:

0-1-2e spells took time to cast during which they could be interrupted by any attack. 3-4-5e spellcasting takes no time, thus can only be interrupted by someone specifically spending their round to do so.

0-1-2e spellcasting could be interrupted by any disturbance to the caster. 3-4-5e have combat casting as a commonly-available ability making spells much harder to interrupt.

0-1-2e magic items were much more fragile, each requiring its own save whenever the carrier/wearer failed to save vs AoE damage. 3-4-5e have largely dropped this.

In all of the above I much prefer the 0-1-2e approach, as they serve to rein in casters and item proliferation somewhat.
 

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Aldarc

Legend
Sure, you can point to differences between TSR-era D&D and WotC-era D&D, but I don't think that OSR is fundamentally about a return to TSR-era D&D, particularly as an explicit part of the "problem" for a number of fans in the OSR community were adventures like Dragonlance.
 

DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
Yeah, I don't think that I would include 2E as part of the OSR. From what I can tell, the hypermajority of the OSR draws inspiration more from Moldvay-Mentzer B/X than from AD&D, whether that's 1E or 2E.

I've seen a lot of AD&D-based clones, and a lot of adventures for them. The newer stuff does seem to be more B/X or Rules Cyclopedia focused.

I'm not going to argue your point any further than to say that it is arguable. Wherever AD&D itself stands in the OSR, there are very few new games based on the 2e mechanics... and none whatsoever based on Player's Option. It's a big part of why I'm here.

Sure, you can point to differences between TSR-era D&D and WotC-era D&D, but I don't think that OSR is fundamentally about a return to TSR-era D&D, particularly as an explicit part of the "problem" for a number of fans in the OSR community were adventures like Dragonlance.

That's a good point, and something I hadn't considered. Most of Dragonlance was already in print by the time I was introduced to the game, and I know Planescape can be a very divisive topic in some circles.

"What is OSR?" is a rabbit hole some people have been lost in, never to return... but if you were to take a stab at it, what qualities would you want a game to have, to appeal to you as an OSR game?
 

Aldarc

Legend
That's a good point, and something I hadn't considered. Most of Dragonlance was already in print by the time I was introduced to the game, and I know Planescape can be a very divisive topic in some circles.

"What is OSR?" is a rabbit hole some people have been lost in, never to return... but if you were to take a stab at it, what qualities would you want a game to have, to appeal to you as an OSR game?
OSR games do not necessarily appeal to me. Some, yes, but not all. I learn a lot from reading through OSR games.

IMHO, OSR typically fall into two major camps: (1) retroclones and (2) new-wave OSR. This last camp is typically more interested in the game design philosophy of OSR and using that to derive new games rather than simply retro-cloning and tweaking older games. So when talking about what qualities an OSR game would have, we need to take both camps into account.

Player Skill > Character Skill: One mantra of the OSR community is that the answer to a given problem in the game isn't on your character sheet. OSR values what a player can do through creative problem-solving more than what a character can do based on the abilities the game gives them. Here we may also include a few other things that may encourage or cultivate that experience:
* High Lethality & Disregard for Encounter Balance: Both of these elements are meant to put caution into how players approach the game, particularly when it comes to combat. The idea being that players cannot go into every combat thinking that it is designed to be balanced in their favor. The solution is not necessarily "combat," and the incentives are not necessarily on killing the monster to get its gold (i.e., XP).

Non-Linearity: This is a HUGE part of OSR, and it's one reason why Dragonlance is often a sticking point between OSR and a lot of contemporary D&D, particularly D&D and Pathfinder style adventures. You can almost think of OSR and Indie Story games as two diverging responses to the same "problem": GM as author. (My interest in OSR involves the overlap and cross-pollination of these two diverging responses.) OSR actively resists linear adventures, railroading, and pre-written plots. OSR does this in multiple ways.
  • Open World Sandbox Play: let the players venture off the rails prepared
  • Non-Linear Dungeons: multiple entrances and exits so the dungeon is not a cultivated railroad experience
  • Random Tables: how do you prevent the GM from being an author? Make them roll encounters, loot, environments, and whatever else using charts and tables.
  • There is also an anti-fudging element because fudging goes against "play to see what happens" and is regarded as a slippery slope towards GM-authorship of outcomes.

Sparse Rules: A lot of OSR games do not bother creating rules for everything nor are they interested in that. So there is an active awareness that rules will not cover everything requiring a "rulings not rules" approach even more so than 5e D&D adopts.
  • Light Character Creation: This is probably also a more modern trend, lighter character creation so that players can more quickly and easily jump into the action.
  • Light Character Options: a non-reliance on feats, skills, and a smorgasbord of character abilities. This also goes hand-in-hand with rewarding player creativity. The player does not necessarily need an explicit ability that gives them permission.
 
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DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
Sparse Rules: A lot of OSR games do not bother creating rules for everything nor are they interested in that. So there is an active awareness that rules will not cover everything requiring a "rulings not rules" approach even more so than 5e D&D adopts.
  • Light Character Creation: This is probably also a more modern trend, lighter character creation so that players can more quickly and easily jump into the action.
  • Light Character Options: a non-reliance on feats, skills, and a smorgasbord of character abilities. This also goes hand-in-hand with rewarding player creativity. The player does not necessarily need an explicit ability that gives them permission.

Well, it certainly explains their antipathy toward Skills & Powers.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I don't regard 2E as OSR but you can run an OSR game with 2E.

No one hates B/X and it's still easy for modern players to understand.

1E a lot less clones. If you like it still plenty of cheap rule books available.
 

HarbingerX

Rob Of The North
I don't think everything you listed is what makes older D&D different. For example, level limits aren't required.

Lethality - Best class (Fighter) 1st-level HP == damage from a longsword hit. Other classes are less.
Random attribute rolls. Play what fate decides.
Attributes have small to minor effects on character class capabilities. Bad stats don't prevent being effective.
Roughly XP doubling per level.
Per class XP tables (I could be convinced this isn't required)
XP for Treasure
Task outcome narrated and then DM sets odds on a per-case basis.
AC values are bounded. This was natural with descending AC, but ascending can do it too.
Save-or-die/.5 damage system.
 

atanakar

Hero
Ability score bonuses and traits are all over the place during the TSR era :

OD&D/Holmes : Only Constitutions (More HPs at 15+) and Dexterity (Missile Fire at 13+) award bonuses.

In AD&D1e and 2e ability scores don't generally award a bonus unless it is 15 or more. Strength only gives a +1 dmg at 16. +1 hit / +1 dmg at 17. Intelligence grants more languages and spells per day. Charisma more spells per day and a Reaction modifier

D&D Basic (Moldvay) : all abilities of 13+ award a bonus/trait. 13-15 +1, 16-17 +2, 18 +3. Which is the closest to the WoTC editions.
 

atanakar

Hero
D&D B/X(BECMI) and AD&D are two separate games to me despite the similarities.

AD&D is Gygax's continuation of OD&D, while Basic goes off on a tangent with Race-as-Class. BECMI introduced a lot more race-as-class character classes in other books. Elf-druids, etc. If the Rules Cyclopedia visual presentation wasn't so garish I would like to read it some day. But I just can't.

If you design an OSR game you have to choose either OD&D (AD&D) or Basic as reference.
 

dave2008

Legend
On the other hand... having played modern D&D for the past twenty years, I am increasingly convinced that racial class restrictions-- or even race-as-class-- are necessary to differentiate nonhuman PCs from humans and from each other.
spell-slots.
I think you can differentiate races without class restrictions. You just have to not be worried about complete balance. IMO, a halfling or even a dwarf should never be able to get an 18 strength (max for humans in my games) without magic. And a goliath, minotaur and dragonkin can get to 20. Personally, unique traits and ability scores is enough differentiation for me.
The main things I like about modern D&D, the things I am most keen to see incorporated into more palatable products, are the stuff further down the list-- the scaling ability scores with the ASIs to match,
We are moving away from increasing ability scores and ASIs in our 5e games. Using feats only (some feats include an ability bump)
 

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