Diplomacy and Bluff roll made in my game... your assistance if you please.

[Veritas]

Just so that I'm not just going off my own "WTF?" reaction on this, I'd like to get the community's opinion on this particular scenario... here are the posts from my Dragonlance game on the dndadventure.com forum (I thought I'd ask here as this is an unbiased group).

To set this up, I am playing the original group in the War of the Lance campaign. They have arrived back at Solace after the Red army has invaded, and spent the night in Theros Ironfeld's hidden basement. Hearing from Gilthanas that he returned to Solace upon discovering that Theros may have been betrayed, Tanis, Tas and Gilthanas sneak out to go find the blacksmith and save him if necessary. The other heroes head for the Inn which is being repaired on the ground. Sneaking around the back of the blacksmith's shop, Tanis rolls a 4 on his move silently, and begins coughing on a lungful of smoke from the still smoldering Valenwood trees. This attracts the attention of the draconian standing out front of the shop with a group of goblins.

The heroes reach the back door and Tas picks the lock when 10 goblins come running around the building with the draconian in tow...

My post:

The goblins quickly surround you, swords ready, but the draconian that was in front with them rounds the corner and yells "Hold!"

"Surrender, or my troops will kill you where you stand!" it commands you. The goblins all stand ready to attack on its command (ie: they have readied attacks awaiting your response.)

Tanis' player's post:

Tanis stands up before the Draconian, arms high in the air. '....good evening my lord...' he says with reluctance, he continues in a whisper. '...we're from the 6th research party, we found out that there was someone hiding in this building. We came here to take him in, we sneaked so we wouldn't cause commotion. Is the front of this building still covered now, sir?'

Bluff: 19 (roll…whoo! ^_^) + 2 (mod) = 21
Diplomacy: 18 (roll =P) + 3 (mod) = 21

What bonus do you think I should give the Draconian on his Sense Motive roll, based on the above... knowing that this is an occupied town... there IS NO 6th research team let alone ANY research teams, and they obviously seemed to be breaking into the shop...

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

What bonus do you think I should give the Draconian on his Sense Motive roll, based on the above... knowing that this is an occupied town... there IS NO 6th research team let alone ANY research teams, and they obviously seemed to be breaking into the shop...

Well, let's see; we'll start with ignoring that Diplomacy roll, since this is purely a Bluff on the PC's part.

I'd say that at the very least, this is a bluff which is "hard to believe," worth at least a +10 for a Sense Motive modifier. It's possible that if the NPC is well aware that there's no such thing as a research team (he is familiar with all the agencies operating within his territory and is confident that his superiors are not concealing anything from him), it might even qualify as "almost too incredible to consider" and get the +20.

Mind you, that's just right out of the 3.0 PH, no adjustments for setting or 3.5 or anything. You'll have to make the final call on how unlikely that story is going to sound to the Draconian in question, but barring some major detail you've left out, I'd give him a +10 to Sense Motive if you feel like he's not suspicious or ambitious enough to show any initiative in his duties (or if you want to go easy on the PCs), or the full +20 if he's a thoughtful guy or it's just a totally stupid bluff to try (one step below "We aren't really here, you're just imagining things").

--
me, i'd give him a +20 and start the fight already
ryan

 

[shilsen]

Without further information about the specific circumstances and the NPC, I agree with Herpes Cineplex that a +10 sounds right.

 

[CalicoDave]

I'd give at least a +10 bonus to the Sense Motive check.

To me the bonus would depend upon what the Draconian was supposed to be doing. If he was guarding the blacksmith shop to keep people out, the the bonus would be upwards of +20. If he was only on guard to keep the peace, he may only be (somewhat) suspisious, so it would be a +10 bonus.

 

[Maggan]

I'd give the draco +10

The draconian finds an elf, a kender and a half-elf doing suspicious things. Since those races are not standard among the dragonarmies, but rather enemies of the draconians (if I remember correctly), the leader has every right to be suspicious.

But they might be spies working for the dragonarmy, so that's a shimmer of doubt in the draco's mind. Which is what makes the bluff-attempt possible in the first place.

Cheers!

Maggan

 

[wedgeski]

What bonus do you think I should give the Draconian on his Sense Motive roll, based on the above... knowing that this is an occupied town... there IS NO 6th research team let alone ANY research teams, and they obviously seemed to be breaking into the shop...

Ignore the Diplomacy (probably your player just covering all the bases?), and give the draconian a +15 bonus at least. There are bluffs which tell a small enough lie to be believed, and there are bluffs which smack of desperation, told by a bunch of people who the Dragonarmies have basically been told to kill or arrest on sight.

This one definitely falls in the latter category.

At least the draconian should have some small chance of being duped - maybe he's distracted by something else at the time. Kudos to Tanis for at least trying the 'talk your way out of trouble' approach, though.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Ignore the rolls. Is the draconian stupid enough to buy it? Has he any reason to believe there are units such as Tanis describes running around?

Bottom line, if the dm thinks the draconoian would think it a plausable bluff, it works. If not, they do what draconians do.

I detest bluff rolls. Make 'em role play it.

 

[takyris]

I'll remember not to put any ranks in Bluff in JRR's campaign... but since I'm a fairly experienced martial artist in real life, I'll hope he pushes for this strategy on attack roll handling, too.

The Diplomacy Roll could have been involved, if Tanis had taken some time to talk the draconian up a bit -- as it is, though, this is just a Bluff. Which is a shame, since, as everyone else has noted, this is a massive stretch. The draconian has little if any reason to believe it, and plenty of reason to be suspicious. At least a +10 on the Sense Motive check.

Again, though -- if he'd said, "Of course, officer, allow me to introduce myself..." and gone into his spiel about how much he admires and respects those folks who do the hard, dirty work that makes his secret agent job possible, and how he'd rather have solid, dependable draconians working for him instead of the untrustworthy kender, that would have merited a Diplomacy check... which would, in turn, have provided a bonus on the Bluff check, or at least minimized the penalty. One's friends ought to be easier to bluff in such a manner than one's enemies.

But based on this description of action, purely a bluff check, and a fairly shaky one at that. The +10 sounds good.

 

[shilsen]

Ignore the rolls. Is the draconian stupid enough to buy it? Has he any reason to believe there are units such as Tanis describes running around?

Bottom line, if the dm thinks the draconoian would think it a plausable bluff, it works. If not, they do what draconians do.

I detest bluff rolls. Make 'em role play it.

Right. Roleplay it. Decide it on the basis of the skills of the character rather than on the persuasiveness of the player. In short, make the bluff roll. I love it when we agree

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Yeah, Bluff works real well.

Tanis: I tell him I'm hear to fix the air conditioning. (roll 20 +8 ranks +3 charisma=31.

Draconian: Huh? I've never heard of air conditioning. Sense motive roll (1 +0 ranks -2 for charisma= -1) Ok, you can go on in.

This might work for anything. Get you in to bless the new queen on her wedding night, etc. A simple lucky roll should not let absurd crap go on. Especially when the other side doesn't get to use the same tactics.

First time my players tried that crap, I'll just roll up an npc with skill focus in bluff and diplomacy. "Sorry, the ugly gnoll talks you into sleeping with him. You're not gay? You must have been curious, then. He made his diplomacy check."

Theoretically, the players could do this, but the npcs can't. That's just wrong.


Sorry for the high jack. Bluff is a pet peeve of mine.