Diplomacy vs. Red Dragon

[Quasqueton]

A party of adventurers need to examine a certain "dungeon" area. Unfortunately, a juvenile red dragon has taken the area for a lair.

The party "face man" wants to try diplomacy with the dragon instead of attack. How would this be handled with the game rules? (Meaning: aside from roleplaying out the scene.) Assume the party is 9th level (as the dragon is CR 9).

What would you set the DC at and why? The DMG suggests a DC 35 for a hostile NPC to become friendly, and a DC 25 for an unfriendly NPC to become friendly. Would a non-combative approach start the negotiation out at unfriendly? Would the dragon need to become "helpful" to let the party do what they need?

Note that the party would not be actually taking anything in the area. Just gaining some knowledge for future use in the campaign. (Yes, knowledge has value, but the dragon isn't physically loosing anything.)

What could the party do to get circumstance bonuses? The party really has nothing to offer as treasure/tribute. A fight is iffy, for both sides.

Thanks for any answers and suggestions on this.

Quasqueton

 

[Crothian]

WEll, the DM needs to set the personality of the Dragon. He might be inquisitive towards this idea, especially for a bribe (circumstance bonus to roll).

 

[Heathen Oracle]

Personality definatley a must. He may not be looking to be getting a hard time from all the advneturers, also if he does scare them off, he is certain to be smart enough to know they will bring back more bigger tougher associates, it then would be a disadvantage to his peaceful new home. Specially if he could actually make a profit kind of like a "toll booth" until he gets a little bigger. Evil isn't necessarily inherently stupid, and would find a way to get the most out of a situation.

 

[Wolf72]

try getting the Slayer's Guide to Dragons.

(not going to looking up, to late) ... 1,000gp per age category ... and DC30? ... otherwise it wants to eat you, for you are tasty and taste good tar-tar

 

[Oni]

The big thing here is going to be determing the dragons starting attitude.

If the party approaches the dragon, showing that they don't mean to attack, where you start on the scale of hostility/friendlyness depends largely on the attitude you think the dragon should start with (this is of course assuming the dragon has decided to strike preemptively to get the upper hand which would pretty much throw negotiation out the window.)

Attitudes might range like this.

Hostile - "You have 10 seconds to make any last request before I crack you open as suck the marrow from your bones."

Unfriendly - "You have 10 seconds to leave, or I'll crack you open and suck the marrow from your bones."

Indifferent - "And why have you so foolishly come into my lair, choose your words wisely as it will decide your fate."

Friendly - "You are wise not to throw your life by coming before me with weapons drawn. Perhaps one such as you could be of use."

Helpful - "Your boldness intrigues me mortal. Long have I been without converstion. Speak, mortal, and if what you say pleases me you shall bear my favor."



Of course I've ranged deeply into the area of personal opinion, but I see that as a possible way of applying attitude scale to a creature like a red dragon. I hope that I've possibly been helpful in determining a starting point.

 

[Kailyn]

If I were the Dragon I would NOT let anyone scout my lair. Information is valuable....unless they are ready to sware some oath of loyalty.

Well there is one other reason I would let a party in and look around...if I was planning to redo the interior so that what they end up with is bad intel.

 

[Pylar]

If I were running a Red dragon as a DM, My start at diplomacy would be a serious attempt at eating one of the party members...or at least a very convincing bluff of trying to eat the party. Give the dragon the appearance of starting from a better position. And it the party acted in a way that amused me, I might let them breathe long enough to talk..

 

[Kibo]

There was some guy a while back that had a thread where I posted a specific solution to a specific scenerio involving diplomacy with a red dragon. I stand by viciousness such as that.

Obviously the personality of the dragon is important. But particularly with evil dragons, I think there should be a certain consistancy when it comes to some character traits. Arrogance and conceit would seem to be staples. If the pc's want something, anything, it has value and will not be parted with freely. What ever it is they want from the dragon, they'll have to pony up. And if they have nothing of value in the way of goods, well there's always services.

As far as how to go about it, well just walking up and knocking on his cavern would be unseemly, and what self respecting home-body of a dragon would be without a familiar to help great people? Now if the PC's did something untoward and molested the familiar in someway (jeez xarlen, get your mind outta the gutter) they would hopefully be smart enough to run far and fast so as to avoid the comming total party kill. Perhaps one lucky player would end up surviving a little while, long enough to be the target of a nice polymorph other, followed by a nice charm spell, eventually ending up as something of a replacement familiar of sorts.

But should the party be particularly clever and bold they might try to strike up a bargain for something they say they want and in the course of negotiations try to trick the dragon into giving them that which they seek for free.

But what might a dragon want in the way of services. Ahhh. That could be a whole forum. But the abridged edition of what would surely be a lengthy exposition, would be anything the PC's really did not want to do. You could have the dragon geas, or otherwise coerce them into some unsavory, humiliating, vile, or otherwise odious task. I like to throw in an evil twist. Should the party have a bard, clever rogue, or anyone with points in perform. They might be forced to stay behind and entertain the dragon. (How isn't really important, a simple rock to mud, and mud to rock should sufficently immobilize and terrify a lone bard, but there are so very many ways within the scope of a dragons power). This is nice, because you can have the dragon put a clock on the adventures. Just how entertaining is that smooth talking bard? A fickle and malevolent dragon may not cut the same slack for an off key note, or the same joke making a second pass, as a drunken crowd in a warm inn. Make Me Laugh, or DIE, the fantasy gameshow that could very well be a once in a lifetime experience. As fun as the party's adventure might be, tormenting them with the uneviable nature of their task, and the fact that a dear friend's life hangs in the balance, I'm sure everyone would be just a little jealous of the bard. Just how does one handle a dragon who heckles you and steps on your punchlines? You've got to be funny, your life depends on it, but there is definately such a thing as too funny.

The devious cruelties I would have a dragon inflict would depend on how I saw the dragon, what the dragon knew of the party, and what the party wanted. (As in the thread about the silver dragon eggs.)

 

[Plane Sailing]

A party of adventurers need to examine a certain "dungeon" area. Unfortunately, a juvenile red dragon has taken the area for a lair.

The party "face man" wants to try diplomacy with the dragon instead of attack. How would this be handled with the game rules? (Meaning: aside from roleplaying out the scene.) Assume the party is 9th level (as the dragon is CR 9).

I recommend using opposed diplomacy checks, since Dragons tend to be good at that sort of thing.

What might be very interesting is if you make up a little flowchart of how a conversation could go, and at each juncture success or failure in the diplomacy check would move the conversation in a favourable or unfavourable direction. You could then roleplay the encounter and make the checks every so often with circumstance bonuses depending on how well (or badly) the player is making his points.

I'm not sure if I've expressed that clearly, so I'll rephrase it.

To make a challenging diplomactic encounter, you don't want it all to depend on just one roll. Too boring. You want it to depend on several rolls, a kind of cut & thrust of diplomacy if you will.

I'd heartily recommend ponying up $5 for Natural 20 Press' excellent book "Tournaments, Taverns and Fairs" because it has a great section on rules for competitions of all kinds. maybe the dragon likes to play chess?

Cheers

 

[Brekki]

The dragon should get a sense motive check, to find out what the party really wants. A diplomacy check only works for the party if there is a slight chance the dragon will negotiate. Diplomacy won't help you if the dragon is already charging at you.

Any dragon will probably start as hostile, no person should be allowed to locate him / his lair and live. Since dragons are not stupid, if the characters have something interesting for him, or are really to strong, he might negotiate.