Dire Tigers CR is WRONG.....

[LokiDR]

I didn't say anything was unusual. I just said that the party's preparations allowed it to negated a sizeable portion of the winterwight's CR. If the average party is to be expected to negate that portion, then it's CR wouldn't be as high.

There is spell called Energy Immunity. It lasts all day. If I extend it, it will last 2 days. This is realistic way to be immune to most energy types. Would this reduce the EL of all combatents that rely on energy damage? No one can say what is "normal preparation" for a party of medium to high level.

Here is the question though, if a party's normal preparations (buffs, spells known, class abilities) defend very effectively against a creature, don't you want to reward them for good planning? Does doing whatever you normally do change the EL? I would venture to say - maybe. Looks like we are back to eye-balling it.

 

[kreynolds]

There is spell called Energy Immunity. It lasts all day. If I extend it, it will last 2 days. This is realistic way to be immune to most energy types. Would this reduce the EL of all combatents that rely on energy damage? No one can say what is "normal preparation" for a party of medium to high level.

It's perfectly reasonable, and there's nothing wrong with that, but there are five elemental energy types, and the chances of choosing the right energy type against an unknown opponent (the winterwight) are 1 in 5. So, there's a 1 in 5 chance that a chunk of the winterwight's CR will be negated. No big deal in and of itself, except that in a discussion about CR systems, I don't think the example put forth is a good one. The chances of choosing the right energy type against a known opponent (the winterwight) are 5 in 5. So, there's a 5 in 5 chance that a chunk of the winterwight's CR will be negated, thereby guaranteeing, before combat even begins, that the EL will be signfiicantly lowered. In the case of the known opponent, some of the randomness of the encounter level difficulty inherent in the system has been entirely removed. There was no "chance" involved.

I'm not saying that the player's preparations were wrong and I wouldn't give out less XP because of it, unless they already knew what they would be facing. I'm merely saying that, as a party, it was well equipped to handle the baddy. In other words, it was an above average encounter, so I think it's a bad example to use when attempting to point out flaws in a CR system when the very example had a reduced EL to begin with.

Does that help?

 

[kigmatzomat]

Here is the question though, if a party's normal preparations (buffs, spells known, class abilities) defend very effectively against a creature, don't you want to reward them for good planning? Does doing whatever you normally do change the EL? I would venture to say - maybe. Looks like we are back to eye-balling it.

To me your normal expenditures don't alter the EL of a truly random encounter. If you are willing to spend your resources on those defenses daily, bully for you. It may save you sometimes but others it will mean diddly. I'm not going to rack an EL up just because the party's burned 10-15% of its spells prematurely. Why would I mod it down?

Now the main question I believe is if the PCs make adjustments for a particular creature. Having foreknowledge does, IMO, change the EL.

Are these equal encounters?
Fighting the dread fanged beast of Kaelbanor (lookit the bones!)

or

Fighting a dire rabbit with rogue & barbarian levels?

The second will obviously go smoother. Prepped up with anti-animal and emotion spells the bunny get's skewered in moments without its dreadful rage. How can they be the same EL when the fights go so differently with the same characters?

Say hello to my leetle friend, Mr. situational modifier.

 

[LokiDR]

It's perfectly reasonable, and there's nothing wrong with that, but there are five elemental energy types, and the chances of choosing the right energy type against an unknown opponent (the winterwight) are 1 in 5. So, there's a 1 in 5 chance that a chunk of the winterwight's CR will be negated. No big deal in and of itself, except that in a discussion about CR systems, I don't think the example put forth is a good one. The chances of choosing the right energy type against a known opponent (the winterwight) are 5 in 5. So, there's a 5 in 5 chance that a chunk of the winterwight's CR will be negated, thereby guaranteeing, before combat even begins, that the EL will be signfiicantly lowered. In the case of the known opponent, some of the randomness of the encounter level difficulty inherent in the system has been entirely removed. There was no "chance" involved.

I'm not saying that the player's preparations were wrong and I wouldn't give out less XP because of it, unless they already knew what they would be facing. I'm merely saying that, as a party, it was well equipped to handle the baddy. In other words, it was an above average encounter, so I think it's a bad example to use when attempting to point out flaws in a CR system when the very example had a reduced EL to begin with.

Does that help?

Obviously, the side that knows about the other in advance has more power. NPCs abusing the party have a higher EL. PCs preparing for a specific monster lower the EL.

I was actually asking a different question: what about preparations that lower the EL when you don't know the encounter is comming. A group paranoid about fire facing a horde of fire elementals. If you didn't know, what do you do with the EL.

I'll agree that the example of the winterwight is a bad one. Perhaps I will open up my copy of Enemies and Allies for the iconic characters at 10th level and compare against something like the scorpian.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm not saying that the player's preparations were wrong and I wouldn't give out less XP because of it, unless they already knew what they would be facing.

Surely that depends also on how they find out what they're facing?

If the adventure hook was "Hey adventurers, there's a winterwight out there. Here's a book on its tactics and weaknesses - go slay it, huh?", that's one thing.

But if the information was not handed to them, but rather gained through use of Divinations, or Gather Information scenarios, or suchlike, then that doesn't change the inherent difficulty of the monster; the PCs have, rather, used the resources at their disposal to give themselves an advantage.

If I've set up an encounter with a bunch of orcs in a snipers' nest high off the ground, with composite longbows, good concealment, etc, I'd judge the EL to be higher than normal, and plan to award higher XP than the CR would indicate.

If the invisible sorcerer scouting ahead managed a lucky Spot check, detected the ambush, and hit the nest with a Glitterdust before the orcs opened fire, the advantage the orcs had is negated... but I'm not going to reduce that bonus XP. If the party had strolled on it, they'd have been massacred. Decent tactics and a little luck avoided that. They shouldn't be penalised for it. If anything, they should be rewarded for not being mindless kick-in-the-door types.

-Hyp.

 

[AuraSeer]

No, you just haven't play epic enough to realize that the power gains as you get higher in level shrink. Level 1 to Level 2 is a 100% increase in power. Level 50 to Level 50 is only a 2% increase in power. Believe me, it may SOUND weird, but this don't work like a video game. The higher level you get, the less power you gain.

That's not the issue. I grok epic level. I've got the book, I've read the book, I've made epic characters and played in epic games. The point remains, the power gap here is enormous.

The gap we're talking about is not the one between 51 and 52; it's between 26 and 52. Twenty-six levels, see? That's complete progression in two prestige classes plus most of a third-- or just a metric buttload of epic feats and epic spells.

::headshaking::
If you're seriously claiming that APL 26 can hold a candle to APL 52, I think you're a little out of touch with reality.

 

[LokiDR]

Say hello to my leetle friend, Mr. situational modifier.

That is how I see it, which why I don't understand all the concern over "accurate" CRs.

Even if you don't have prior knowledge, certain abilites will dratically change the outcome. Any cleric who focuses on turning will drastically weaken most undead encounters, at a relatively small cost of feats and items. This needs to be accounted by the DM or else some encounters will just be too easy to justify the experience awarded.

 

[kreynolds]

I was actually asking a different question: what about preparations that lower the EL when you don't know the encounter is comming. A group paranoid about fire facing a horde of fire elementals. If you didn't know, what do you do with the EL.

If it was chance, or experience on the part of the character's, leave it alone. I wouldn't want to penalize them for either.

I'll agree that the example of the winterwight is a bad one. Perhaps I will open up my copy of Enemies and Allies for the iconic characters at 10th level and compare against something like the scorpian.

That's all I was saying.

 

[kreynolds]

Surely that depends also on how they find out what they're facing?

Absolutely.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi WizarDru mate!

Nope, quite the opposite, in fact. They had a single NPC, who was a cohort, and only 11th level at that time. He was totally ineffectual in the fight, as were all of the animal companions and friendly shadows.

Fair enough. Then what we know is that the PCs were six strong giving them EL +1.

Unless, of course, one of the PCs is a Hunter of the Dead, and immune to Undead Energy drains, and has several spells in place (as a cleric of Pelor) to negate most of the negative effects (as well as having a fire shield, just to tick the winterwight off).

Okay I checked the Hunter of the Dead, nice to have around when dealing with undead, but it has nothing to protect it from Blightfire.

The Winterwight would gain its Spell Resistance against Fire Shield meaning any penetration would be unlikely and damage would be minimal.

Actually, they considered it one of the most UNlucky. The Wiz/MoAA had a 40% chance to beat SR, and failed for 8 successive spells.

Presumably this was in association with the recently amended version of haste...but we can skip that point.

The Druid and cleric/hunter of the dead had a significantly lower chance, and thus chose different tactics (such as summoning an Elder fire elemental and engaging the wight phsyically).

So some 17th-level PCs actually engaged the Winterwight and survived!? This is the area I am having difficulty visualising; which is why I mentioned it must have been their lucky day.

Four attacks almost always hitting any non-epic ACs each automatically inflicting seven blightfire saves!

The shadowdancer kept her distance and was well nigh undetectable. The Paladin got the holy hell beaten out of him, but has fantastic saves, and the cleric threw down a heal or two. The flying arcane archer was unable to harm the wight, but stayed out of the way, and thus was in no danger.

Surely Blightfire is quite simply one of the most lethal special abilities ever!?

The battle was decided by a Disintegrate and a failed save.

That would have been my chosen method of elimination. Yet you say the Wizard failed eight SR checks and still had a Disintigrate left. I would have been 'in like Flynn' with that right from the offing.

The wight was being cocky, to be sure...it had survived four rounds with barely any scratches, and took the time to destroy the bigby's hand, so it could savor the moment. But the wizard was holding onto a maze...just in case.

Wow! The Winterwight survived for four rounds and didn't manage to inflict Blightfire on anyone?

Make no mistake, though, the players were highly prepared, very buffed and were tactically very good. But how any CR system can take that into account, I don't know. Which is rather my point.

Prior knowledge of the opponent is a -1 EL situational modifier. The ability to 'buff up' in advance is probably another EL -1 situational modifier.

Six PCs give you an effective EL +1.

So the Winterwight was somewhere between EL +3 to EL +4 for this encounter (depending on how extensive and specialised we treat your PCs preparations). Meaning it was either a 50/50 encounter or not far from it.

I still say it was their lucky day. Normally you would expect Blightfire to have totally laid the smackdown on at least one PC if not more.

But well played the PCs I say.