Pathfinder 2E Dirge of Doom Clarification

[joshjurg]

Foes within the area are frightened 1. They can't reduce their frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area

So, the question is does Dirge of Doom's frightened condition have any reason to function differently from any other condition?

Specifically, when the Dirge ends does the frightened condition immediately end - or does it end at the affected creature's turns as normal?

If if functions as normal, the following scenario is possible (but not terribly easy to engineer):

• Bard sings Dirge
• Allies go
• Frightened Monsters go
  (Next Round)
• Bard sings Inspire Courage
• Inspired Allies go
• Frightened Monsters go, frightened wears off EOT.

- Repeat

(Note that in bullet #5, the effects of both bardsongs are present - allowing the party to benefit from both songs simultaneously every other conbat turn.)

 

[Porridge]

So, the question is does Dirge of Doom's frightened condition have any reason to function differently from any other condition?

Specifically, when the Dirge ends does the frightened condition immediately end - or does it end at the affected creature's turns as normal?

If if functions as normal, the following scenario is possible (but not terribly easy to engineer):

• Bard sings Dirge
• Allies go
• Frightened Monsters go
  (Next Round)
• Bard sings Inspire Courage
• Inspired Allies go
• Frightened Monsters go, frightened wears off EOT.

- Repeat

(Note that in bullet #5, the effects of both bardsongs are present - allowing the party to benefit from both songs simultaneously every other conbat turn.)

I think RAW is ambiguous, in more than one respect. The main ambiguity relevant to your example is whether the Fear condition Dirge of Doom inflicts is an "ongoing effect" of the cantrip or not.

If it is, then the description of Composition spells (p99, CRB) tells us that any "ongoing effects" of previous composition cantrips end immediately if a Bard casts another cantrip. So in the above example, the Fear effect would end as soon as the Bard sings Inspire Courage.

If it isn't - if imposing the Fear condition is an instantaneous effect, like damage - then it wouldn't end when the Bard casts Inspire Courage, and things would go as you describe in your example, above.

(Here's a thread discussing this.)

 

[joshjurg]

Yeah, I'm in the thread on Paizo's forums and just wanted to see if I could get a wider variety of interpretations of the issue. I think we'll have to get this issue to the Pathfinder development staff to get a clear answer what the intent of these rules are.

 

[CapnZapp]

I believe there are a number of effects like this.

Does a condition like "while they remain in the area" affect only the specific effect's condition or just any effect with that condition?

My own instinct would be to keep things simple and not require that players track where conditions come from. Frightened is frightened is frightened, as it were.

That is, in order to honor the specific requirements you would have to track each condition's source separately, and that just strikes me as not something mandated by the rules.

In the end, I suspect it will never be officially resolved, simply since any attempt to impose rules would immediately become complicated and cluttery. (Unless the ruling was "don't keep track of condition sources" of course!)

 

[Campbell]

My reading is that all enemies in the area at the time of casting are Frightened 1. While the spell is in effect if they remain in the area they do not get Frightened 1 reduced at the end of their turn. I believe this also supersedes effects like Aura of Courage and Bravery which would automatically reduce the Frightened value. If they move outside of the area they are able to drop it.

If an enemy does not move out and stars align it is possible to double up with Inspire Courage.