Disable Device - How do you know you have only just failed?

[Herremann the Wise]

The rogue in the game I am about to run was wondering about the Disable Device skill and in particular that I as the DM would be making the roll.
He was wondering if there was something he could do to try and attain whether he had disabled the device or not as the skill does not specifically mention communicating a failure by 4 or less.
Are we talking a spot or search check?
What are your thoughts?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Christian]

Hrm. My first thought was that, of course the rogue can tell whether she successfully disarmed the trap! But the text under Try Again in the skill description definitely implies that it's possible for the rogue to fail but not know that she failed, which must mean it's possible for her to succeed but not know that she succeeded! But I couldn't find any guidelines, either in the skills section of the PHB or in the Running the Game or Traps sections of the DMG, to suggest when this would or wouldn't be the case.

Some suggestions: a high enough roll should give the character that information; the guidelines under the optional variant, 'What Disabling a Device Means' (DMG 3.5 pg. 70) would suggest that exceeding the disable DC by four should be enough for the rogue to be certain the trap is disabled. Other than that, I'd make a DM judgment call based on the specific nature of the trap, whether the rogue could successfully disable it without being sure she had. And on such a trap, I'd allow a new Search check for the Rogue to determine whether the trap was still active if she wasn't sure ...

 

[RigaMortus]

I am not quite sure I understand the question, but if the Rogue rolled high enough they would have a working understanding of how the trap works. They would know how to disable and probably do so. If they rolled REALLY well, they can leave the trap "armed" and simple bypass it.

Now if they fail their roll (but not by much) then they know they failed because they couldn't quite figure out the trap. They can try again to disable it. If they failed badly, well the trap is sprung.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I am not quite sure I understand the question, but if the Rogue rolled high enough they would have a working understanding of how the trap works. They would know how to disable and probably do so. If they rolled REALLY well, they can leave the trap "armed" and simple bypass it.

Now if they fail their roll (but not by much) then they know they failed because they couldn't quite figure out the trap. They can try again to disable it. If they failed badly, well the trap is sprung.

This assumes that the player makes and knows the roll. The PHB specifically states that the DM makes the roll. This is where my confusion lies; in knowing exactly what to communicate to the player.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[RigaMortus]

As I said... Player states he wants to try and disable the trap... DM makes the secret roll and tells the player one of four possibilities:

1) Not only do you figure out how to disable this trap, you know how to bypass it without disabling it, if you'd like to do that.
2) You figure out how to disable the trap and do so successfully.
3) You can't quite figure out this trap, but you think if you have enough time you might be able to get it.
4) Make a Reflex save.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Then why not just have the player make the roll?

By the DMing rolling it, you want the player to be unsure whether they have disarmed it or whether they have just failed. In the two extreme cases, the player knows that either they have succeeded or failed. However, it is the middle two options which the DM should leave grey.

However, and this is the question, can the player make some sort of check to discern which side of the grey fence they fall on.

Like what Christian said, I was leaning towards a search or spot check. I just was not sure if there was anything official on the matter.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[RigaMortus]

Because if the DM rolls the check and the check fails, the player won't know why the check failed. Was it because it was a low roll on the die, or was it because the trap is above his skill level?

If the player rolls for himself and he rolls a 2 on the die, and the DM says "you fail" then the player automatically knows it was probably because he just rolled low and will try again. If the player rolls a 20 and he still fails, well the player knows that the trap is beyond his skill level and won't bother trying again. If the DM rolls, they player won't know why he failed. And if the trap is above his skill level and he continues to try and disable it, this takes time, and time is not something players always have on their side.

In retrospect, I may have given too much info away on my number 3 answer. I might change it like so:

1) Not only do you figure out how to disable this trap, you know how to bypass it without disabling it, if you'd like to do that.
2) You figure out how to disable the trap and do so successfully.
3) You weren't able to disarm the trap, but at least it didn't spring on you (this time). Do you want to try again?
4) Make a Reflex save.

 

[Quicken]

I allow take 20 on disabling traps. Am I wrong? That way if they want me to roll and a roll poorly I'll give them a description like "you jam a rock into the presure plate. you think that should stop it" and it's up to them if they trust their skill. If they wanted a spot or search check to double check then they should have taken 20.

 

[dcollins]

Original poster has a good question. Reading carefully, I think the only chance of "unknowing failure" is when you're trying to exrcise the future-sabotage option.

If the check succeeds, you disable the device. If it fails by 4 or less, you have failed but can try again. If you fail by 5 or more, something goes wrong. If the device is a trap, you spring it. If you’re attempting some sort of sabotage, you think the device is disabled, but it still works normally.

So my reading of this passage is:
- Check succeeds: disabled & known as such.
- Check fails by 1-4: failed & known as such.
- Check fails by 5+, on trap: failed & sprung & known as such.
- Check fails by 5+, on sabotage: failed & believed to be success.

 

[RigaMortus]

I allow take 20 on disabling traps. Am I wrong? That way if they want me to roll and a roll poorly I'll give them a description like "you jam a rock into the presure plate. you think that should stop it" and it's up to them if they trust their skill. If they wanted a spot or search check to double check then they should have taken 20.

Well according to the rules you can't Take 20 on any skill that would have "bad" effect if you fail it. If you fail a Disable Device check on a trap, you spring it. Therefore you can't Take 20. You can, however, Take 10.